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 Post subject: ESB Vader Belt Box Analysis
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:59 am 
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Hey gang,

I've been rolling some things around in my mind about the ESB Vader belt boxes and I wanted to see if we could either confirm or correct some of the commonly accepted details. Many replicators these days use Hammond brand project enclosure boxes when building up the belt boxes, but it seems that there are differing opinions about which specific model/size is most accurate. I have seen Hammond 1550C boxes (https://www.hammfg.com/part/1550C) be used by some, but others feel those are too big and prefer the size of the Hammond 1590S boxes (https://www.hammfg.com/part/1590S).

I reckon a lot of people attempt to scale things based on the size of the belt itself, which of course only really works if you assume that you have the belt width correct. For the "hero" belt in ESB, I've seen a lot of people use an approximately 2.25" wide belt, while others use an approximately 2.5" wide belt. Since there is some disagreement there, I will set that all aside for now and attempt to use other components to scale from.

I figured we'd look at the green and red lights on the belt boxes as a starting point to scale from. I think most people agree that the green lights on the screen-used belt boxes are Saia-Burgess brand indicator lamps like these:

Image

... and the red lights are Camdenboss brand incandescent indicator lights like these:

Image

Does anyone have any contradicting information about these parts? Please let me know if you do.

If I can move along assuming that these parts are correct, I can scale things based on those. I busted out the calipers to measure everything:

Image
For the green lamps, the black bezels are about 23.94 mm tall by 17.93 mm wide by 5.90 mm deep and the green lenses are about 19.82 mm tall by 13.54 mm wide with 4.26 mm of depth exposed.

Image
For the red lights, the chrome bezels are about 8.02 mm in diameter and 1.9 mm deep and the red lenses are about 6.61 mm in diameter with 4.00 mm of depth exposed.

With that info, I could then quickly model up some simple yet accurately sized 3D models to play with digitally:

Image

I then took an image of one of the real belt boxes and using some software called fSpy I determined the approximate focal length and camera distance/position used to take the photo so that I could recreate the same perspective in 3D space in Blender, which is my prefered 3D software for stuff like this.

Image

Then I could scale the image and camera in 3D space until the sizing of the green and red lights in the photo matched the outline of my green and red light 3D models.

Image

With that I knew that everything else I modeled from this perspective would be fairly accurately scaled. I quickly modeled some place holder silver knobs (including the one loose/broken knob!) and little section of braided hose to match the photo and help get a sense of the whole thing. Hammond Manufacturing is kind enough to provide 3D models of all their enclosure boxes on their website for download, I assume to allow customers to more easily work out their designs and determine what boxes suit their projects. So I downloaded the 3D models of a few different enclosures they offer to see how they scale with this image.

Interestingly enough, the 1550C, which some think is too big, seems to actually be a little bit too small:
Image

Obviously, the 1590S is even smaller:
Image

The one I found to be the best fit was the 1590C, (https://www.hammfg.com/part/1590C) which is larger than either of the other two models:
Image

So that's where I'm at! I can't say for sure that the ESB production specifically used these Hammond 1590C boxes, but whatever they did use appears to be very similar in size. The slight taper these boxes have matches well too.

Does this make sense to people? Am I way off here? I would love to get some thoughts from other people and their experience putting together some ESB boxes.

Cheers,

Mike.


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 Post subject: Re: ESB Vader Belt Box Analysis
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:22 am 
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The boxes I made for my project turned out to be around 11.9526 cm wide and 8.9916 cm tall when scaling up to full scale. Is that anywhere near the size it should be according to this finding? The individual parts and the box were scaled differently to the reference images. Of course, if I had known that Hammond allowed people to download 3D models of their boxes I could have done that to get accurate shape to the box width-height-depth wise.

Really love these kinds of threads and love the models you made. :thumbsup


EDIT: Found the download link and checked it with my model. When scaled down to 1:6 scale it is a little taller and a bit smaller in width than the boxes I made. The biggest difference is that I made my box a square, whereas this box is wider at the back. If I redo the boxes in the future I'll incorporate these differences.


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 Post subject: Re: ESB Vader Belt Box Analysis
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:57 pm 
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Thanks Carsten! It looks like you scaled your models very close to the dimensions of the 1590C boxes. The taper is pretty subtle so I'd doubt it would really be that perceptible at 1/6th scale. :thumbsup


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 Post subject: Re: ESB Vader Belt Box Analysis
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:16 pm 
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Awesome thread. Searching for accurate ESB belt parts myself at the moment. Thanks for Posting. :thumbsup


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 Post subject: Re: ESB Vader Belt Box Analysis
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:34 am 
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Love the research..great job!


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 Post subject: Re: ESB Vader Belt Box Analysis
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:24 am 
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Here is a comparison of the Boxes I make to the screen used and an overlay on top of the screen grab. I had posted years ago that I felt these boxes were too big, but the more I experimented I found them to be extremely close to the screen used boxes. The most noticeable difference is the way the corners on the vintage boxes was rounded in a different style not compatible to modern Hammond boxes. However I have been unsuccessful in finding vintage boxes so far.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: ESB Vader Belt Box Analysis
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:15 am 
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If its worth anything the boxes I used on my Vader which are UK rebranded Hammond boxes where the same spec as the 1590C except the edges were not tapered. I had to sand them rounded was not hard to do could this be also an explanation for the prop boxes? Could they have also had to manually make the rounded edges perhaps?

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 Post subject: Re: ESB Vader Belt Box Analysis
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:43 pm 
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I highly doubt they would go to such an effort. I'm sure whichever boxes they used, already had that shape on the corners.


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 Post subject: Re: ESB Vader Belt Box Analysis
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:52 pm 
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juan7fernandez wrote:
Here is a comparison of the Boxes I make to the screen used and an overlay on top of the screen grab. I had posted years ago that I felt these boxes were too big, but the more I experimented I found them to be extremely close to the screen used boxes. The most noticeable difference is the way the corners on the vintage boxes was rounded in a different style not compatible to modern Hammond boxes. However I have been unsuccessful in finding vintage boxes so far.

Image


Thanks for sharing! Great comparison. Which model of enclosure box are you using in the pictured belt, 1590C or 1550C?

It's interesting that I've seen the "roundedness" of the edges vary a bit, even with modern production enclosures. I've got a pair of 1590C boxes I plan to use for my ESB belt that have a slightly sharper edge on them. Something to keep an eye out for!


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 Post subject: Re: ESB Vader Belt Box Analysis
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:58 pm 
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Darth Africanus wrote:
If its worth anything the boxes I used on my Vader which are UK rebranded Hammond boxes where the same spec as the 1590C except the edges were not tapered. I had to sand them rounded was not hard to do could this be also an explanation for the prop boxes? Could they have also had to manually make the rounded edges perhaps?

Sent from my G3221 using Tapatalk


More interesting info! I agree with Juan that it seems unlikely that the original costume team would have bothered rounding over the edges of the boxes manually with intention, as it seems like an arbitrary thing to do. The edges of the ANH boxes were not rounded, granted they were also a completely different type of box, but it doesn't feel like a conscious design decision. But I suppose anything is possible!


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 Post subject: Re: ESB Vader Belt Box Analysis
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:44 pm 
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Well I would not say it was effort really the aluminium used on these boxes to my surprise is very soft
when I sanded it was very easy 1min job to sand it abit more rounder

and by my eye the prop box seem bit sharper edged than boxes who come rounded out the die
also the boxes come powder coated or not

and by looking at the weathering on the ESB boxes they just seem painted rather than powder coated
since the paint flakes and chips so easily to cause the weathering which looks like maybe they just took the boxes as is and did't even
prime them just sanded them to provide grip for the paint and shot them with paint

which seems like a likely scenario just a quick sand over and the boxes where painted

and inadvertently the rounded corners were made by hand
But that's my hypothesis lol :lol

But the most likely simple answer is a vintage model of the boxes that were used


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 Post subject: Re: ESB Vader Belt Box Analysis
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:24 am 
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I did find a brand that made boxes with a seemingly perfect roundness, but they just didnt make any boxes with the correct dimensions. I gotta look them up again. If I find the name of the company I'll share it here.


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 Post subject: Re: ESB Vader Belt Box Analysis
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:06 pm 
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Very interesting, I can only read and appreciate these great studies! Congratulations guys!


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 Post subject: Re: ESB Vader Belt Box Analysis
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:52 pm 
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juan7fernandez wrote:
I did find a brand that made boxes with a seemingly perfect roundness, but they just didnt make any boxes with the correct dimensions. I gotta look them up again. If I find the name of the company I'll share it here.


I'd be interested to see that! Could you share which model of Hammond box you used in the replica belt you posted a couple of posts back?


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 Post subject: Re: ESB Vader Belt Box Analysis
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:43 am 
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I'm using 1550C. I've tried all of the different models and these are the closest by far. You will notice the distribution of space between the greeblies is dead on. I think the 1590C being a bit longer than the 1550C, create an odd distribution space between the greeblies. I wish I still had the 1590C to show you what I mean but I sold them long ago.


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