It is currently Mon May 20, 2019 11:49 am

All times are UTC


THE PROP DEN is primarily a Darth Vader Prop Discussion Board, but we also deal with other Star Wars Props as well as Prop Replicas from other movies. If you do not yet have an account, set one up, sign in and jump into the Vader Prop Discussions!


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
Author Enter your Message here
 Post subject: The UK Mold Discussion - Theories and the Facts We Know
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:18 am 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:58 am
Posts: 10555
Location: Denmark
Big question: when was the UK Mold made.

Some say at the end of ANH production. Others say at ESB pre-production.

I am starting this discussion to see what the consensus is regarding this particular mold and what evidence is presented to back up the claims.

I can start off with a few facts.

The Rick Baker (US) mold made casts with these features:
- No tabs
- Filled in gap between eye sockets
- Filled in mouth - no grill showing (or faint)
- Filled in chin vent - depressed - no grill showing (or faint)
- Filled undercuts above and below on the tusk tubes

The UK mold made casts with these features:
- Three tabs on top
- Filled in gap between eye sockets
- Filled in mouth - grill showing clearly
- Filled in chin vent - level with the neck, covering the whole hole.
- Added neck extension - potentially with the same filler used to fill lens gaps, mouth and chin vent.

The helmets we know come from these mold lineages listed in alphabetical order with the LFL helmets at the top:

Rick Baker Mold:
Tour helmets - Movie Poster helmet
1 Movie helmet (confirmed) - Funeral Pyre helmet
DJ
eFX
SL

UK Mold lineage:
Movie helmets - ESB and RotJ
Tour helmets
20th C
GS
TD
TM
VP

I will add more to the lists as I may have forgotten some.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The UK Mold Discussion - Theories and the Facts We Know
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:22 pm 
Random avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:51 pm
Posts: 1335
Location: Geislingen, Germany
MP helmet from the Baker mold. It is a tour helmet but has it's own name.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The UK Mold Discussion - Theories and the Facts We Know
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 9:06 am 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:58 am
Posts: 10555
Location: Denmark
Cool. Added it as well as the Funeral Pyre helmet.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The UK Mold Discussion - Theories and the Facts We Know
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 12:22 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:58 pm
Posts: 44
Location: Northern California
Wasn’t there an early ANH Don Post? Or was that one just one of the Rick Baker touring helmets?


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: The UK Mold Discussion - Theories and the Facts We Know
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 2:43 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:21 am
Posts: 653
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Nice, comprehensive, list! My tendency is to think that the UK mold was made post production due to the amount of damage captured in the casting and not seeing much evidence of the minor cleanup that was done, theoretically, when the Baker mold was pulled. But just as soon as I reach that conclusion I start to think otherwise lol.


Last edited by dcarty on Wed May 01, 2019 3:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The UK Mold Discussion - Theories and the Facts We Know
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 2:49 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:58 pm
Posts: 44
Location: Northern California
I was referring to this ANH Don Post helmet.

https://www.icollector.com/Original-pro ... _i10030657


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: The UK Mold Discussion - Theories and the Facts We Know
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 2:57 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:21 am
Posts: 653
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
You're right--I totally forgot about that one! That's the one that Ainsworth put up for auction.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The UK Mold Discussion - Theories and the Facts We Know
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 5:14 am 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:58 am
Posts: 10555
Location: Denmark
Well, the reason for this whole post is because I believe I have found something substantial that will help narrow things down on when the UK mold was made.

It is the crack on the rear right side of the face mask, seen in many UK mold lineage casts. The pictures were posted on several online forums including this one, but if anyone has any issues with me using the pictures, please let me know.

It's on the original face mask that Arnaud owns.
Image, on Flickr

It's on the GS.
Image, on Flickr

It's on the TD.
Image, on Flickr

It's on the TM. (Please note that this picture of the TM is after the paint stripping, but before removing the filler, so some details are obscured - I just don't have other pictures of the TM from that side showing that detail, but TM owners can verify the detail is there - perhaps with a better picture of it.)
Image, on Flickr


However, this crack wasn't on the helmet originally and I doubt it's there on the Rick Baker mold castings - anyone who owns an SL can perhaps confirm this!?

This is the best picture I can show that shows that side of the face on the original when it was at Don Post and the crack isn't there - sure, it isn't the best angle. This picture is from the Profiles in History auction.
Image, on Flickr

There are some discrepancies on when Eller let go of the costume and when the helmet should have reportedly been molded for ESB production, but I think it has been shown in the past that the US Rick Baker mold casts and UK mold casts share too many things in common to not be from the same exact source molded at different times in its life - the original screen used helmet - despite there also being differences between the two lineages.

If the conclusion is that the Arnaud face mask is the screen used face mask, and both mold lineages share details with that particular casting, then the UK mold could not have been made at the end of ANH production, nor during the tours, so puts it at around ESB pre-production or even during production, in some way, as both Eller and people at production claims they had it in their possession in '78.

A theory could be that Eller indeed had it until '79, and the helmets used in ESB up until the time production got the original costume back was the ANH spares reworked into ESB, and then additional helmets were made. Though, I hope a paper trail is eventually found to shine a light on this mystery.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The UK Mold Discussion - Theories and the Facts We Know
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 2:53 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:54 am
Posts: 124
Very interesting. Anyone have a raw SL available to examine that area?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The UK Mold Discussion - Theories and the Facts We Know
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 4:35 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:21 am
Posts: 653
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
It's difficult to say on the SL without examining the master casting. The crack doesn't appear to be there on my copy but I don't know if that area was filled in/modified.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The UK Mold Discussion - Theories and the Facts We Know
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 5:48 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:24 pm
Posts: 360
Location: Berlin
On the Arnaud faceplate in France you can see remnants of clay on different spots (grills, eye sockets, tusk tubes) - clearly leftovers from a molding job. I‘ve seen them in person and one can spot them on the existing images pretty easily. My theory is that the UK mold was a quick job which was done after the repaint of the screen used helmet for the footprint ceremony, perhaps when the faceplate was back in the UK in storage at Nick Harrisons place.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The UK Mold Discussion - Theories and the Facts We Know
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 5:52 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:56 am
Posts: 178
on my Raw SL you can definitely see something there. Problem is its too subtle and I cant tell if it was the crack starting to show and cast before it completely cracked or if it is the remnants of a coverup work:

Image

Image

Image

Image


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: The UK Mold Discussion - Theories and the Facts We Know
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 10:04 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:51 pm
Posts: 160
On that Raw casting the little rectangle dent under the tube is nice and visible but hard to see on that classic B and W photo.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: The UK Mold Discussion - Theories and the Facts We Know
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 4:40 pm 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:58 am
Posts: 10555
Location: Denmark
With a thin casting it takes very little to make a small thin area into a large crack. It could even show up - like crumbling paper creating a crease - as the more firmer parts of the face mask moves when being handled.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

All times are UTC


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Blue Moon by Trent © 2007
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Hosted by Freeforum.ca, get your free forum now! TOS | Support Forums | Report a violation
buy web visitors
MultiForums powered by echoPHP phpBB MultiForums