Then you misunderstood the intent....I never meant to imply that he is a producer or seller of castings, just that he along with Phil and JB have made claims about their castings' authenticity which do not stand up to scrutiny and in regard to which they have no interest in addressing.

And you know as well as I do because Gino first wants to have the best then he'll sell it en mass....as with his TK stuff. First he builds it up and then the production begins. The only thing stopping him with Vader is that he knows his stuff doesn't stand up to authentic first gen castings.

I was also under the impression that Gino has never allowed his helmets that kind of close examination to warrant either of your points. At least that is the vibe I get from him. So, how about you drag this discussion back on topic and stop with the pointless digressions. I am enjoying reading your defense, yet again, of the TD's alleged veracity.

Fair enough. Well the photos of his stuff reveal enough, but that's for another thread....

Well I studied the TD and SL over the weekend since I was vexed to find any sign of an extension on the neck...care to hear the story?

No, not really.

Ahhh to heck with it, on with the essay...

Since I am required to provide reasons why I think the TD is the earliest representative mask, and the presence of a prior neck extension on the TD or even the SL would rule out the TD being necessarily the earliest, I did some more analysis over the weekend. I was vexed about the possibility that there might have been a neck extension on the TD. Naturally I had to compare the TD, SL and TM to do that. What I found was interesting. I can match details near the base of the neck...the edge of the neck...all the way around on the TD, SL and TM to a greater or lesser extent. Because of that, I can line up the necklines from the left, front and right sides. I used a method to cradle each mask in the same location/angle and using a tripod and the same lighting was able to replicate images better between masks.

The bottom line is that the three masks share the same neckline, to a surprising extent, and the TD and SL didn't come from something with a neck extension.

The TD is just a bit longer in the front center portion. There is no evidence of an extension on the TD or SL. However, if they share the same neckline, one could say there is no extension because both masks were cut or trimmed in exactly the same place as where the TM neckline ends and the neck extension begins.

So, sharing the same neckline doesn't make it possible by itself to rule out the presence of an extension on the TD and SL at some point. But it also shows that the neck profile/length/curvature is not just a random happening based on how an artisan chooses to trim the neck, which makes sense....it has to fit the armor. Thus, an authentic lineage mask close to ANH or from the time of ANH to ESB will have a characteristic and identifiable neckline profile both in terms of length and slight deviations in curvature along its edge. Any casting claiming to be from ANH (or ESB) and not matching that profile would have questionable lineage if it came out of a mold a different way. Saying it was trimmed shorter would not be an excuse because accuracy would depend on the neck mating with the armor profile precisely. The 20th Century mask shares a similar neckline shape, but it is just trimmed back a bit.

But what of the TD and SL? Did they have an extension? Did what they came from have an extension? That's an important question as it part of understanding the lineage, or whether the TD is early. If all the early masks had an extension which was then removed (or not), then they would ideally share an ancestor that had an extension. If the extension was removed, evidence of that should be apparent on the base of the neck. That evidence of cutting off the extension should be similar between castings of the same immediate source. There should be something to show how the extension itself was cut, with some remnant of it in cross section left behind. But in the case of the TD and SL, neither show such evidence. The TD neck base is cut with a very specific cut pattern, but just on the left side. On the right side, there is no evidence of cutting or trimming, just a rounded edge. Whether the TD came like this out of the mold or was cut like that I do not know for sure, but that edge matches the SL, so my guess would be it came out of a mold like that.

The SL has an addition to the base of the neck but it is unique. Part of the neck edge is exposed and rounded like the TD (no cut pattern anywhere) and another part has material added onto it, but interior to the neck edge, not on top of it, and extending down a very small amount. There is no such addition of material seen on the TD neck. Whether that material is left over from preparation for molding, I do not know. But in both instances, there is no evidence for there being a separation point from an extension.

But can the exact neckline, and the absence of evidence of an extension or cutting off an extension be enough to exclude the prior presence of one on the TD? Of course more evidence is required. So what I did is examine the details around the base of the neck on the TD, TM and SL. They should all meet at the neck and terminate at the edge in the same way, since they share a very similar neckline. There are areas on the TM, one in particular, where the neck extension is made to meet and blend exactly with the neck and there is work done both on the neck and the extension to that end. There is no such similar work noticable on the TD, nor on the SL. Details shared by the TD, SL, and TM in that area also confirm this. Furthermore, I found an L-shaped crack in the casting of the TM neck edge that was there before the extension was added, and is completely absent from the TD or SL...if it was there afterward it would have gone through the extension as well. Thus, features seen on the base of the neck of the TM in relation to where the neck and the extension are made to blend seamlessly with one another are absent on both the TD and SL. The TD, SL, and TM share details in the neck edge area, but to differing extents, and that gives some clue as to sequence, which I may get into later.

And what of the 20th Century? It has a similar neckline, and it even has what looks like the remnant of an extension, but upon closer inspection, it isn't. The small amount of material around the base of the neck extends around the back of the entire mask as well. It is also recessed a bit from the edge of the neck, not flush with it.

In short, both the TD and SL appear to have necks that terminate in a surprisingly specific and similar way. Furthermore, neither have the neck edge detail one would expect to see of a mask which had previously had an extension.



One could say well that detail was simply lost or sanded off. But the absence of detail on the neck itself specific to the presence of the extension precludes this possibility.

Of course not having had a neck extension by itself doesn't prove the TD was the earliest.

BTW, in the course of this in-depth examination of the necks I was able to confirm the presence of yet another seam (likely in the casting) on the TD ...with remnants on the TM and SL.

So, the TM and TD neck are the same length all-round, despite what you've previously stated of the TM neck being cut short on one side? So, the previously posted picture of the TD showing a longer neck versus the TM is incorrect? Good to know.

I wouldn't expect the SL to have an extension as the hero helmet was prepared differently for molding when that was made - neither the DJ nor the SL sports one and DJ watched his get made, so he can confirm whether one was there and later trimmed off.

Having worked on several helmets in my time that had excess material in areas I can attest that it is quite easy to trim and sand it flush to the edge of the piece and not leave any sign of the excess being there. If work was done well it will be impossible to determine whether it had a neck extension or not. You will not be able to tell if the trimming and sanding was done to make it seamless - and you usually try to avoid the outer surface edge of the piece and concentrate on the bottom and interior: working from inside out. All that can be established is that it doesn't have one now.

You had the VP. Did it show signs of a neck extension?

However, the possibility is there that the neck extension wasn't done on the original, but on a cast from that mold. The possibility is certainly there. Either way, it's good to have some new clarifications on these casts.

Well I had said some time ago it was cut shorter but to some protest, then I looked at it again and it seemed the TD was longer there which is what I was trying to show in the comparison image. But now it seems they are the same. Part of the problem previously was lining up the masks exactly since the TM sits differently and so the angle from side view would be different (for judging length). But I was able this time to move the masks and keep them in the same orientation in a cradle and found the neckline lined up as well on the left...which is where I thought the TM was a bit shorter (since the neck extension is longest there but the neck height on the original is asymmetrical anyway). But I think I am able to correct myself



True, he should know. I've heard no mention of it from him but didn't ask specifically.



I understand, which is why I presented the explanation about the details in that area....although I didn't go into depth on that.



Good question. The VP neck is definitely shorter, so that is impossible to determine just from the casting I had.



Yes certainly the possibility that a neck extension was added to a copy of the original is there. It is also possible...and I'm thinking based on your theory about the fate of the original ANH mask, maybe even likely...that an extension was added to the original ANH mask and changes made to it. That is also a possibility....something I didn't consider before. Yes I am hoping this was somewhat helpful.




So the new seam I found is actually around the base of the neck This is a significant finding (to me at least) and my only guess is that this could be a transition line for when the mask was sculpted onto Dave Prowse' head. But that's the only guess/explanation I can come up with for that, since the neck length matches what we see on the screen mask. Only Brian could confirm something like that...

I don't follow you here. You say there is a seam at the bottom of the neck? Err... what? To me that sounds like you found evidence of the neck extension. Please clarify.

No, not an extension per se...it is a seam. It is well above the TD/TM/SL neckline and therefore above the extension point on the TM...above where the original screen mask neckline is.

By the way I confirmed that none of the Vader molds in the archives had neck extensions including the ILM ANH Vader mold. But hopefully DJ might chime in at some point.