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 Post subject: antiques roadshow
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:10 pm 
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What did you guys think of the face plate just shown on the antiques roadshow?


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 Post subject: Re: antiques roadshow
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:23 am 
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this one with Ron punter

Image

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: antiques roadshow
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:31 pm 
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Yes, is it an old show? I only caught a few minutes whilst doing something else but everyone was dressed for summer so it wasn't recorded recently.


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 Post subject: Re: antiques roadshow
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:12 pm 
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That looks like an ESB face mask. The Owner(is that Ron Punter?) says he got it in 76 but that can not be true since its painted and finished as ESB.


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 Post subject: Re: antiques roadshow
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:50 pm 
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It's a new show, but yes it would have been recorded last summer.


I met Ron and and saw this beautiful facemask a few years ago, he told me then it was "1976 mask". Having seen it up close I believe for various reasons that it's likely to be one of Rick Baker's tour masks, or another cast from that same mould made after ANH. Ron was given it to refurbish, and as it's clearly fitted with an ESB dome mount, tusks and mesh I believe the mask was intended to be used for that film along the with others that were being newly made at the time.

The eye lenses have a brown glass paint applied over the inside which meant I couldn't tell the plastic's original colour very well, that may have been done to darken them a little. I haven't seen any production photos or scenes in either ESB (or ROTJ) of a facemask with the same grey/black masking lines so I tend to believe it may not have been screen used, although I'm convinced it was intended to be. Ron suggests in that show that the mask was in his workshop waiting for the dome that didn't arrive before filming wrapped, so again it's unlikely to have been used if that's the case.

Alternatively, it could possibly be one of the spare unused casts made for ANH, again intended for use in ESB. Once a cast is cleaned and repainted it starts to get harder to tell these things, but either way the facemask isn't the one and only screen-used ANH (currently in France) and existed prior to the new masks being made for ESB that Ron also worked on, so what he says of its origin is true.. "from a certain point of view!"



One thing's for sure, in person it looks stunning!


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 Post subject: Re: antiques roadshow
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:23 am 
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Hmmm..does it feature cast tabs on top? Personally, I don't think that a Baker faceplate touring casting made it's way to the UK to be used in ESB production. There is no neck "extension", correct? And what's the true colour/material of that ring on top? It should be grey PVC.

gonk27 wrote:
It's a new show, but yes it would have been recorded last summer.


I met Ron and and saw this beautiful facemask a few years ago, he told me then it was "1976 mask". Having seen it up close I believe for various reasons that it's likely to be one of Rick Baker's tour masks, or another cast from that same mould made after ANH. Ron was given it to refurbish, and as it's clearly fitted with an ESB dome mount, tusks and mesh I believe the mask was intended to be used for that film along the with others that were being newly made at the time.

The eye lenses have a brown glass paint applied over the inside which meant I couldn't tell the plastic's original colour very well, that may have been done to darken them a little. I haven't seen any production photos or scenes in either ESB (or ROTJ) of a facemask with the same grey/black masking lines so I tend to believe it may not have been screen used, although I'm convinced it was intended to be. Ron suggests in that show that the mask was in his workshop waiting for the dome that didn't arrive before filming wrapped, so again it's unlikely to have been used if that's the case.

Alternatively, it could possibly be one of the spare unused casts made for ANH, again intended for use in ESB. Once a cast is cleaned and repainted it starts to get harder to tell these things, but either way the facemask isn't the one and only screen-used ANH (currently in France) and existed prior to the new masks being made for ESB that Ron also worked on, so what he says of its origin is true.. "from a certain point of view!"



One thing's for sure, in person it looks stunning!


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 Post subject: Re: antiques roadshow
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:50 am 
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The cast tabs would only be if it is a cast of the original ANH. If it was one of the other two non-used face masks in ANH, they would have had functional tabs that would have been easy to unscrew and cover the screw holes with filler.


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 Post subject: Re: antiques roadshow
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:04 pm 
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I have checked my other images from the Ron Punter ESB faceplate and cannot make out any traces of cast tabs on the top inside the ring mount. Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but I was always under the impression that the "quick and dirty" UK mold from the screenused ANH faceplate has been produced at Elstree to fabricate new Vader faceplate castings for ESB production. And the original/working tabs on the screen used ANH faceplate weren't removed during the casting process.

The Vader ANH costume travelled to the US for the TIE fighter cockpit scenes, correct? After shooting wrapped, the costume went to Don Post, where Rick Baker removed the tabs and molded the faceplate and helmet. After that, the helmet got a partial repaint and went on tour with Kermit Eller. Eller delivered the original ANH helmet (possibly the complete costume) back to LFL at one point, it went back to England, and the UK mold was made for ESB production. After that, it was possibly stored under the supervision of Nick Harrison, who rented out storage facilities to the production (see the "carpet picture" of the faceplate next to an Indy whip for reference. I found this pic in the Harrisons storage room at Elstree years ago). Then the faceplate somehow found it's way into Grundberg's collection in France. I can only guess here, but I think that Harrison sold it to Grunberg many years ago.

Is Ron Punters faceplate one of the original Vader faceplates created for ANH? Possible. When I talked to him many years ago, he stated that he painted all OT Vader helmets for the production, and refurbished surviving ESB helmets and armour for ROTJ.

It would be interesting to know if all screen used/production-made ESB Vader faceplates feature cast tabs. The Paul Allen stunt does have them.


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 Post subject: Re: antiques roadshow
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:15 pm 
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vadermania wrote:
I have checked my other images from the Ron Punter ESB faceplate and cannot make out any traces of cast tabs on the top inside the ring mount. Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but I was always under the impression that the "quick and dirty" UK mold from the screenused ANH faceplate has been produced at Elstree to fabricate new Vader faceplate castings for ESB production. And the original/working tabs on the screen used ANH faceplate weren't removed during the casting process.

The Vader ANH costume travelled to the US for the TIE fighter cockpit scenes, correct? After shooting wrapped, the costume went to Don Post, where Rick Baker removed the tabs and molded the faceplate and helmet. After that, the helmet got a partial repaint and went on tour with Kermit Eller. Eller delivered the original ANH helmet (possibly the complete costume) back to LFL at one point, it went back to England, and the UK mold was made for ESB production. After that, it was possibly stored under the supervision of Nick Harrison, who rented out storage facilities to the production (see the "carpet picture" of the faceplate next to an Indy whip for reference. I found this pic in the Harrisons storage room at Elstree years ago). Then the faceplate somehow found it's way into Grundberg's collection in France. I can only guess here, but I think that Harrison sold it to Grunberg many years ago.

Is Ron Punters faceplate one of the original Vader faceplates created for ANH? Possible. When I talked to him many years ago, he stated that he painted all OT Vader helmets for the production, and refurbished surviving ESB helmets and armour for ROTJ.

It would be interesting to know if all screen used/production-made ESB Vader faceplates feature cast tabs. The Paul Allen stunt does have them.



Hey Tom

Yes you're right, there are no cast-in tabs on the top of the mask, and yes I agree that all the newly-made helmets made for ESB came from the 'uk mould' which included the tabs. The lower side tubes on Ron's mask have their undercuts filled in exactly like the SL.. this, along with the absence of cast tabs, the same fibreglass matting that Baker used on his tour helmets (including the 'Funeral Pyre helmet I believe, which is also a Baker cast) and a neckline similar to an SL all points, in my opimion, to the mask coming from the 'US mould'. Also the UK mould would have been made during ESB's production for that film and those raw casts given to Ron to finish, however his facemask was already a completed prop that he was given to refurbish so had been around before the uk mould was made presumably (which agrees with him calling it a '1976 mask').

The only mould sources we really know of so far are the US and UK ones, and to me there are far too many indicators pointing to the US line for it not to be of Baker lineage. I don't know how one of these ended up back at Elstree, but if one was returned to Lucasfilm after tour use, they may have sent it over for use as an extra helmet in the film?

..and yes, the ring appears to be grey plastic under the paint. I would assume Ron added the the ESB ring, mesh and tusks as part of the refurbishment.


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 Post subject: Re: antiques roadshow
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:58 pm 
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I remember a discussion about the Punter faceplate being the Hoth Vader faceplate - actually the first Vader scene that has been shot for ESB.

Let's assume it is indeed a faceplate casting from the Baker mold that has been sent over to Elstree to serve as a "master" Vader faceplate for ESB production (which would make definite sense to me).
Why was there no mold produced at Elstree for ESB from that faceplate, either refurbished or in it's original form? Because it got "lost" in Ron's workshop? I vaguely remember reading in another thread that someone (if I remember correctly, it was Brandon Alinger) explained that the interior outfitting does not correspond with screen used ESB Vader faceplates.

So it is probably more realistic/safe to say that Ron painted a Vader faceplate casting that was given to him at one point in ESB style. If I remember correctly, he was actually not involved in adding the lenses, grills, straps and foam - that was done in the costume or prop department.

The Punter faceplate features a round hole next to the slit on top where the strap is mounted - perhaps a remnant of a tab screw? Or just an "accidental" hole drilled as a starting point for sawing out the top slit?


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 Post subject: Re: antiques roadshow
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:19 pm 
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vadermania wrote:
I remember a discussion about the Punter faceplate being the Hoth Vader faceplate - actually the first Vader scene that has been shot for ESB.

Let's assume it is indeed a faceplate casting from the Baker mold that has been sent over to Elstree to serve as a "master" Vader faceplate for ESB production (which would make definite sense to me).
Why was there no mold produced at Elstree for ESB from that faceplate, either refurbished or in it's original form? Because it got "lost" in Ron's workshop? I vaguely remember reading in another thread that someone (if I remember correctly, it was Brandon Alinger) explained that the interior outfitting does not correspond with screen used ESB Vader faceplates.

So it is probably more realistic/safe to say that Ron painted a Vader faceplate casting that was given to him at one point in ESB style. If I remember correctly, he was actually not involved in adding the lenses, grills, straps and foam - that was done in the costume or prop department.

The Punter faceplate features a round hole next to the slit on top where the strap is mounted - perhaps a remnant of a tab screw? Or just an "accidental" hole drilled as a starting point for sawing out the top slit?



I don't think Ron's facemask is the Hoth helmet, the Hoth Helmet's chin vent is ANH sized isn't it? the chin vent on Ron's mask is larger and I don't think Ron's mask was ever used as a template for the ESBs as it has no tabs. The ESBs came the from the 'uk mould' taken from the original helmet with its tabs intact. In my opinion Ron's mask was sent to him to be refurbished presumably for use in ESB at around the same time the brand new helmets (with their cast-in tabs) were being pulled from the UK mould and given to him to paint. And yes, you could be right, it may not have been Ron himself that fitted the dome ring, but the fact that it's the correct found part makes me think that this mask was going to be used in filming as it's the same part that all the other masks have.

As to the mask looking different inside to other known ESB masks, that would make sense if it was made elsewhere. Ron tidied it up and converted it for the film so that it resembled the other helmets that had been made for Empire but the the inside of Ron's may have been left as it was, besides adding the ESB mesh, straps and clips..


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 Post subject: Re: antiques roadshow
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:06 am 
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Interesting read, the mystery remains :)


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 Post subject: Re: antiques roadshow
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:41 am 
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gonk27 wrote:
vadermania wrote:
I remember a discussion about the Punter faceplate being the Hoth Vader faceplate - actually the first Vader scene that has been shot for ESB.

Let's assume it is indeed a faceplate casting from the Baker mold that has been sent over to Elstree to serve as a "master" Vader faceplate for ESB production (which would make definite sense to me).
Why was there no mold produced at Elstree for ESB from that faceplate, either refurbished or in it's original form? Because it got "lost" in Ron's workshop? I vaguely remember reading in another thread that someone (if I remember correctly, it was Brandon Alinger) explained that the interior outfitting does not correspond with screen used ESB Vader faceplates.

So it is probably more realistic/safe to say that Ron painted a Vader faceplate casting that was given to him at one point in ESB style. If I remember correctly, he was actually not involved in adding the lenses, grills, straps and foam - that was done in the costume or prop department.

The Punter faceplate features a round hole next to the slit on top where the strap is mounted - perhaps a remnant of a tab screw? Or just an "accidental" hole drilled as a starting point for sawing out the top slit?



I don't think Ron's facemask is the Hoth helmet, the Hoth Helmet's chin vent is ANH sized isn't it? the chin vent on Ron's mask is larger and I don't think Ron's mask was ever used as a template for the ESBs as it has no tabs. The ESBs came the from the 'uk mould' taken from the original helmet with its tabs intact. In my opinion Ron's mask was sent to him to be refurbished presumably for use in ESB at around the same time the brand new helmets (with their cast-in tabs) were being pulled from the UK mould and given to him to paint. And yes, you could be right, it may not have been Ron himself that fitted the dome ring, but the fact that it's the correct found part makes me think that this mask was going to be used in filming as it's the same part that all the other masks have.

As to the mask looking different inside to other known ESB masks, that would make sense if it was made elsewhere. Ron tidied it up and converted it for the film so that it resembled the other helmets that had been made for Empire but the the inside of Ron's may have been left as it was, besides adding the ESB mesh, straps and clips..


I think I get the point now - sorry, I‘m a bit slow these days. Ron‘s faceplate could have been an ANH Baker touring faceplate in it‘s first life. It had been sent to Elstree for ESB production, and Ron refurbished it. That makes sense indeed.


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 Post subject: Re: antiques roadshow
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:20 pm 
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vadermania wrote:
I think I get the point now - sorry, I‘m a bit slow these days. Ron‘s faceplate could have been an ANH Baker touring faceplate in it‘s first life. It had been sent to Elstree for ESB production, and Ron refurbished it. That makes sense indeed.


Put it down to the Christmas booze mate! - but yes, that's what I believe Ron's mask to be.


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