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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:38 pm 
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Don't have them on my laptop but there are out there....somebody will post them...sooner or later :lol


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:12 pm 
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Midnight Trooper wrote:
Picture please?


Come on Keegan, they were posted in huge detail 5 years ago on the RPF and here. Check the thread from the RPF where I matched the C scar up in a gif with the screenused and you guys still didn't believe it. Unfortunately you and a whole bunch of others believed everything gino ever said about anything. If I remember his quote correctly, when I was a member of his "propaganda" site: "I may not know EVERYTHING about SW props, but I know more than anyone else." Or something along those lines.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:42 am 
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Hey, we all make mistakes. I don't know most of you here and I dont get along with most of who I have gotten "into it" with. The Vader community does tend to have a reputation and I'm sorry for slinging mud when I didn't have the right to come in that strongly.

From an "outsiders" perspective there has been a lot of people trying to claim something or other about their castings. I have followed most of those threads here and beneath those squiggly lines there is sometimes insightful info. But oh man there have been so many different things claimed that it's often hard to judge who has the right of it. I shouldn't have sided with Gino on the C-scar issue. But on one side I had a friend with hands on experience with the helmets in the archives and also the Rick Baker mold; on the other I had several people and their pictures or interpretation of what they thought it should look like. So I'm sorry for not giving credence to those people but here is why

I think the first picture I ever saw of this scar of mystery was a TM casting that JRX made. IIRC people said that horrible crater was supposed to be an authentic detail.
So that is why I'm asking if the scar on the Original TM has ever been shown. I am going somewhere with this and if someone has easy access it will save me hunting through tons of threads with deleted pictures.
I may have been wrong, but I'm trying to get an idea of what you guys now think the original detail really looks like.
Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:00 am 
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Midnight Trooper wrote:
Hey, we all make mistakes. I don't know most of you here and I dont get along with most of who I have gotten "into it" with. The Vader community does tend to have a reputation and I'm sorry for slinging mud when I didn't have the right to come in that strongly.

From an "outsiders" perspective there has been a lot of people trying to claim something or other about their castings. I have followed most of those threads here and beneath those squiggly lines there is sometimes insightful info. But oh man there have been so many different things claimed that it's often hard to judge who has the right of it. I shouldn't have sided with Gino on the C-scar issue. But on one side I had a friend with hands on experience with the helmets in the archives and also the Rick Baker mold; on the other I had several people and their pictures or interpretation of what they thought it should look like. So I'm sorry for not giving credence to those people but here is why

I think the first picture I ever saw of this scar of mystery was a TM casting that JRX made. IIRC people said that horrible crater was supposed to be an authentic detail.
So that is why I'm asking if the scar on the Original TM has ever been shown. I am going somewhere with this and if someone has easy access it will save me hunting through tons of threads with deleted pictures.
I may have been wrong, but I'm trying to get an idea of what you guys now think the original detail really looks like.
Thanks


Fair enough and I understand, I'd have done the same thing I guess. The original TM is now in a display in a museum in Germany. I can ask Tom exactly which one it is because I don't remember the name. I think it's in Frankfurt? Anyway, if you know someone that lives in Germany, have them stop by and snap pics of it. I believe it is in it's original form, so you should be able to see the C scar. I only know of private pics of it without any "enhancements", but Tom would be the only one who can give permission to show it. At this point, I'd ask him not to because all it will do is open up more attacks etc. It's there. You either believe it or you don't. There's no point in trying to prove something 5 years later that was already proven, but I'd like to know where you are going with this if you care to elaborate.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 6:16 am 
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Lambotour wrote:
Midnight Trooper wrote:
Hey, we all make mistakes. I don't know most of you here and I dont get along with most of who I have gotten "into it" with. The Vader community does tend to have a reputation and I'm sorry for slinging mud when I didn't have the right to come in that strongly.

From an "outsiders" perspective there has been a lot of people trying to claim something or other about their castings. I have followed most of those threads here and beneath those squiggly lines there is sometimes insightful info. But oh man there have been so many different things claimed that it's often hard to judge who has the right of it. I shouldn't have sided with Gino on the C-scar issue. But on one side I had a friend with hands on experience with the helmets in the archives and also the Rick Baker mold; on the other I had several people and their pictures or interpretation of what they thought it should look like. So I'm sorry for not giving credence to those people but here is why

I think the first picture I ever saw of this scar of mystery was a TM casting that JRX made. IIRC people said that horrible crater was supposed to be an authentic detail.
So that is why I'm asking if the scar on the Original TM has ever been shown. I am going somewhere with this and if someone has easy access it will save me hunting through tons of threads with deleted pictures.
I may have been wrong, but I'm trying to get an idea of what you guys now think the original detail really looks like.
Thanks


Fair enough and I understand, I'd have done the same thing I guess. The original TM is now in a display in a museum in Germany. I can ask Tom exactly which one it is because I don't remember the name. I think it's in Frankfurt? Anyway, if you know someone that lives in Germany, have them stop by and snap pics of it. I believe it is in it's original form, so you should be able to see the C scar. I only know of private pics of it without any "enhancements", but Tom would be the only one who can give permission to show it. At this point, I'd ask him not to because all it will do is open up more attacks etc. It's there. You either believe it or you don't. There's no point in trying to prove something 5 years later that was already proven, but I'd like to know where you are going with this if you care to elaborate.


Fair enough thank you.

What I am angling at is I definitely completely accept that the c-scar is a real, 3D marking on the original ANH helmet.
I was wrong in that debate but I was going along with what I felt was good info and evidence against several people with different interpretations of that detail. It really stunk to me that people even today don't appear to agree on what this detail is or looks like.
But I thought I want to give those people the chance to show it again. Now that I know what it looks like I want to see which people I may have been unfair to.

I'm not trying to attack the original TM at all. The reason I asked to see the detail on the original TM and not one of the JRX castings is because those castings appear to have been embellished.
I fully belive the original TM could have the detail but it doesn't devalue it if it doesnt. It came from a different mould and was converted; so like all the original helmets that followed the ANH it was cleaned up slightly and made into something else.
The two ANH tour helmets in the archives came from the
RB mould and are heavily cleaned up, and differnt ways.
Neither have any trace of the scar because it really is a fairly shallow marking.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:27 am 
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Midnight Trooper wrote:
Fair enough thank you.

What I am angling at is I definitely completely accept that the c-scar is a real, 3D marking on the original ANH helmet.
I was wrong in that debate but I was going along with what I felt was good info and evidence against several people with different interpretations of that detail. It really stunk to me that people even today don't appear to agree on what this detail is or looks like.
But I thought I want to give those people the chance to show it again. Now that I know what it looks like I want to see which people I may have been unfair to.

I'm not trying to attack the original TM at all. The reason I asked to see the detail on the original TM and not one of the JRX castings is because those castings appear to have been embellished.
I fully belive the original TM could have the detail but it doesn't devalue it if it doesnt. It came from a different mould and was converted; so like all the original helmets that followed the ANH it was cleaned up slightly and made into something else.
The two ANH tour helmets in the archives came from the
RB mould and are heavily cleaned up, and differnt ways.
Neither have any trace of the scar because it really is a fairly shallow marking.


The original TM does have the C scar. It was not a fabricated detail by Jesper or anyone else. The problem, and it should answer your question, is that Jesper did not entirely remove the buildup around the C scar. He left that buildup to highlight the C scar for all to see. Remember this was back at a time where we didn't have HD reference of the C scar and when he saw it, after spending many, many hours removing paint and other buildup, he was shocked and excited, so he left what he believed was original detail to highlight the C scar. It wasn't an intentional, deceptive act. It was simply a WOW, look at this, type of discovery. He didn't want to fuck with that area too much. It was good that he did remove filling over other areas of the faceplate or we would never have seen those eye extensions, which we know are on the hero ESB faceplate. The attack against the TM back then was because guys were pissed that they weren't lucky enough to get one. Hell, I think I was second to last to even be included and I originally only had a dome. The faceplate came later which was one of Jesper's personal masks, so I was real lucky.

Is the TM the best helmet ever? Of course not. It's one of the better helmets out there, but there are always going to be better helmets that come along. It was a special helmet back 8 years ago or how ever long it's been and we all learned a lot from it. It was just a shame to see it attacked so much back then. It's not like TM owners were posting pics of it and being elitist trying to show anyone up that didn't have one, but the vader community is filled with scum and villainy and scoundrels. It is what it was.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:54 am 
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Lambotour wrote:
The original TM does have the C scar.

This is what I want to see. Hopefully someone will be kind enough to post a picture of it at some point. :cool: I dug around and found this gif with your name on it. Image
Is that the original TM?

Lambotour wrote:
It was not a fabricated detail by Jesper or anyone else. The problem, and it should answer your question, is that Jesper did not entirely remove the buildup around the C scar. He left that buildup to highlight the C scar for all to see. Remember this was back at a time where we didn't have HD reference of the C scar and when he saw it, after spending many, many hours removing paint and other buildup, he was shocked and excited, so he left what he believed was original detail to highlight the C scar. It wasn't an intentional, deceptive act. It was simply a WOW, look at this, type of discovery. He didn't want to fuck with that area too much.


Im not trying to continue to sling mud but the detail I have seen on Jesper's ANH version of the TM is not at all what it should look like on a RB casting, but I have not seen what it should look like on a UK mould casting. On the JRX It looks like there is material gouged out in the general area but it is far more than the shallow detail it should be. If he would have benefited from HD reference of the original scar does that mean he was essentially digging around trying to find remnants of it? In any case I wish I could get a clear answer about what people think about how it turned out looking. Are people saying it looks correct? Or that it is an imperfect attempt to highlight what may have been faintly there?

Whatever the area looked like after the paint was stripped and prior to Jesper poking at it, I have yet to see a non Photoshopped picture is how I remember the conversation going..
But after the fact do we have the shape below on both the original TM and the JRX castings?
Image

The shape that is correct to the RB mold is shown below on the original "Sithlord helmet" casting.
Image
As I recall this was reluctantly shown late in the debate for fear of people faking the detail. As much as I dont agree with Thomas I have never slammed his original casting. I think it is a very good casting and appears to reflect all the correct RB mold features. The castings he had made that I have seen pictures of is a different story...

So I still disagree with a few things but I'm trying to be more careful and specific with what those things are. Hopefully frankness will beget frankness as we move ahead.
We all love our stuff, sometimes a bit too much. There is a difference between bashing something and trying to talk about possible shortcomings with objectivity.

Lambotour wrote:
Is the TM the best helmet ever? Of course not. It's one of the better helmets out there, but there are always going to be better helmets that come along. It was a special helmet back 8 years ago or how ever long it's been and we all learned a lot from it. It was just a shame to see it attacked so much back then. It's not like TM owners were posting pics of it and being elitist trying to show anyone up that didn't have one, but the vader community is filled with scum and villainy and scoundrels. It is what it was.


That is what I believe as well.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:59 am 
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Well if you want to know it out of first hands, send JRX a PM.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:02 pm 
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Midnight Trooper wrote:
The shape that is correct to the RB mold is shown below on the original "Sithlord helmet" casting.
Image
As I recall this was reluctantly shown late in the debate for fear of people faking the detail. As much as I dont agree with Thomas I have never slammed his original casting. I think it is a very good casting and appears to reflect all the correct RB mold features. The castings he had made that I have seen pictures of is a different story...

I find it funny that in every other picture of a casting from original or the actual screen used helmet being compared to a screen capture, they are ALWAYS sharper and more detailed than the capture - just think about every Stormtrooper or Fett or Scout or whatever the heck original prop or casting off one shows compared to screen captures - yet I am told to believe that a softer detailed SL or RB mold cast is EXACTLY the same as those sharp details seen in the screen capture. Seriously... what's with the backwards logic with this? The RB mold casts are not indicative of how the helmet looked on screen. The softness in the details proves that beyond any doubt. Even sharpening the pictures in photoshop will not generate the look as seen in the capture. It just does not make sense to me.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:49 pm 
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No Humor Man wrote:
Midnight Trooper wrote:
The shape that is correct to the RB mold is shown below on the original "Sithlord helmet" casting.
Image
As I recall this was reluctantly shown late in the debate for fear of people faking the detail. As much as I dont agree with Thomas I have never slammed his original casting. I think it is a very good casting and appears to reflect all the correct RB mold features. The castings he had made that I have seen pictures of is a different story...

I find it funny that in every other picture of a casting from original or the actual screen used helmet being compared to a screen capture, they are ALWAYS sharper and more detailed than the capture - just think about every Stormtrooper or Fett or Scout or whatever the heck original prop or casting off one shows compared to screen captures - yet I am told to believe that a softer detailed SL or RB mold cast is EXACTLY the same as those sharp details seen in the screen capture. Seriously... what's with the backwards logic with this? The RB mold casts are not indicative of how the helmet looked on screen. The softness in the details proves that beyond any doubt. Even sharpening the pictures in photoshop will not generate the look as seen in the capture. It just does not make sense to me.


Well you have to take into account that you are comparing a picture with colors of gunmetal, black and in some areas white against a black cast. Even a black and white picture still has the offset of greys and blacks and white compared to only black. When you have colors, the details are going to pop as opposed to a straight black. Take a total black pic of the original and see how much detail you can make out of it, you won't be able to see much of anything. That's not hard to understand. If you took the screen used ESB Fett bucket and produced a cast, sure you will see the deeper cuts and details, but a black cast of it, if compared to the original, isn't going to show as much detail as the colored original. To me it's the same as when I see certain models, like the millennium falcon, being painted. That off white color is enhanced with a black wash which makes all the panels and small details pop. Compare the two and the two colors (off white and black) will surely show off more detail than the straight off white one.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 5:00 pm 
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Midnight Trooper wrote:
Image
Is that the original TM?


No that was my cast. In the larger pic of the TM, which was posted by Mac I believe, what you see to the left of the C scar that "enhances" the curved outline of the C scar is what was left on by Jesper. That's why is seems so much deeper than the SL or RB mold casts. If that had been removed, then all you would see is the scratch that the C scar is. That's what I tried to explain. That extra build up on the left has now been removed from the original TM and you can now see how the C scar actually looks like on it.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 6:21 pm 
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Lambotour wrote:
Well you have to take into account that you are comparing a picture with colors of gunmetal, black and in some areas white against a black cast. Even a black and white picture still has the offset of greys and blacks and white compared to only black. When you have colors, the details are going to pop as opposed to a straight black. Take a total black pic of the original and see how much detail you can make out of it, you won't be able to see much of anything. That's not hard to understand. If you took the screen used ESB Fett bucket and produced a cast, sure you will see the deeper cuts and details, but a black cast of it, if compared to the original, isn't going to show as much detail as the colored original. To me it's the same as when I see certain models, like the millennium falcon, being painted. That off white color is enhanced with a black wash which makes all the panels and small details pop. Compare the two and the two colors (off white and black) will surely show off more detail than the straight off white one.

Oh, I know. But there's a difference between clear as day and hardly showing. And even if an SL was painted exactly like the original and under the same lighting situations and everything else taken into account, I doubt very much it will show up as anything more than a faint detail compared to the original. There's just nothing to pull that kind of clear detail out of something that faint. So either the silicone didn't pick up details sharply if it was molded prior to the "repaint", or it was molded after the "repaint". I'm sure when more details about the face mask in its current state is shown, that it will be clear whether I'm correct in my assessment or dead wrong. As it stands now there has been nothing shown that has convinced me that the RB mold was made prior to the repaint.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:43 pm 
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Carsten, the RB mold may indeed produce something slightly softer than what was on the original helmet, repaint or not. Without looking at the real deal (which with the discovery of the original ANH now seems more possible than it seemed a month ago) it is just going to be a bit of guesswork.
But I disagree that it looks sharper in pictures. On the real helmet we are seeing a scratch in the black paint and the scratch is a lighter color. I think we are seeing that more than the actual 3D shape.
It really is very small and shallow compared to the more significant warts that make the ANH special.

But yes I believe that the original SL helmet shows a good example of what the RB mold produces for that detail.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:14 pm 
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I would add that a scratch or nick in the paint would be more likely to occur where there is a sharp transition in the surface depth. Imagine running a file or a fingernail over a smoothly painted surface except for one bump. It is there you'd be most likely to cause a scrape or nick in the paint. So in my mind I think the painted-on or scratched-off appearance of the C-Scar is correlated with the root cause of a surface depth transition at or near that location.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:26 pm 
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No Humor Man wrote:
As it stands now there has been nothing shown that has convinced me that the RB mold was made prior to the repaint.


And do you still believe, after the date timeline discussion, that the UK mold came before the repaint? I think you hold on to too much with the repaint without knowing to what extent the repaint was done. And I disagree with your comment about not being able to repaint it to look like the original. There are some Fett repaints that look nearly identical to the real deal. It's certainly possible. It seems you want the UK mold to be first, for whatever reason, when you have yet to see an untainted cast from it. For now you have as much as you can expect from an untainted cast in the SL, for example, than anything you've seen, so I would focus on trying to go from there instead of dismissing it. From what I've seen, nothing tells me the UK mold came first either and logically speaking, it wouldn't have. I'd love to be wrong on that, believe me, because it would be just another awesome event in Vaderland.


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