It is currently Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:16 am

All times are UTC


THE PROP DEN is primarily a Darth Vader Prop Discussion Board, but we also deal with other Star Wars Props as well as Prop Replicas from other movies. If you do not yet have an account, set one up, sign in and jump into the Vader Prop Discussions!


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 108 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Author Enter your Message here
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:24 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:24 pm
Posts: 361
Location: Berlin
No Humor Man wrote:
It would actually be an interesting experiment to try and pair that face mask with a dome, then, to see how it sits.


I think it could be simulated by taking a profile shot of Ron's faceplate and positioning a cutout of a profile shot of an ESB dome on it. The mountig rings were actually touching the inner top side of the dome.

Would be a job for Mac.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:52 pm 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:58 am
Posts: 10623
Location: Denmark
Not perfect, since I couldn't find exact matching angles, but close enough. I even think I have the dome go down too low in the back. But here we are.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:50 pm 
Random avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:13 am
Posts: 4
Location: Sydney, Australia
Looks like a resemblance to the hoth helmet.
I'm a subscriber to this theory...Seems very plausible
Ps- really loving this thread and the info being shared by those with so much knowledge and experience. Would love to hear from Paul/ DArthVaderV if he has anything to add or comments.
Also any info on whether the anh armor set was reconditioned for esb?
If it happened to the helmets, is it possible that it was turned into the armor worn in the meditation chamber scene?
Great to be a vader enthusiast !


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:19 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:45 am
Posts: 233
Location: Northern California
Nice idea, but this is why it doesn't work. I'm not saying this is more correct. Only that you have to have the exact same angle and distance for this to actually work. Perspective will screw you every time.
Kinda like Banthapoodoo's perspective thread says.

Image


I must also ask everyone why it is so much easier to believe that the chin grill could be altered on this mask instead of the Don Bies helmet? Especially when the grille opening is more
correctly shaped on this helmet than it is on the Bies helmet. Punter's grille opening is very close in size and shape to screen used grill openings, while the Bies opening is small even for
a tour helmet and it's sides are more curved suggesting a freehanded approach, instead of using the actual template that I am sure existed to ensure grille opening consistency between
the screen used helmets.

I did see the damage feature comparison, with the brow and center forehead marks, but if you look at this Bies insert you can see a 'painted over' divot on the brow in the same spot.
And the picture of Bies holding the dome appears to have a mark in the forehead also.


ImageImage

----

John


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:21 am 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:58 am
Posts: 10623
Location: Denmark
Putting a photograph and a movie capture together gives even more issues than putting two photographs together that aren't exactly angled. There's just too much difference between a still camera and a movie camera, which you can easily see in that example.

Also, you greatly misinterpreted the size relationship between the screen capture and the photograph, resulting in the dome being way oversized for the comparison. I tried replicating your results, but simply couldn't. The dome mount in the rear is simply too high and this is what I ended up with. Remarkably similar to my previous attempt, wouldn't you say.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:42 am 
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 10:21 pm
Posts: 478
Location: London, UK
Hi John

I'm afraid we can't rely on the Clapperboard reference for the level of detail you were looking for a few posts ago.. Those interviews were recorded on film (probably 16mm), transferred to 2 inch video tape for broadcast, recorded by someone at home presumably on VHS or Betamax? then uploaded to youtube..

That said, we can see a bit of the break to Vader's left tusk tube in the Clapperboard footage. I agree with Lambotour, this also makes me think it's likely to be the Meditation Chamber helmet.


Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:11 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:45 am
Posts: 233
Location: Northern California
No Humor Man wrote:
Putting a photograph and a movie capture together gives even more issues than putting two photographs together that aren't exactly angled. There's just too much difference between a still camera and a movie camera, which you can easily see in that example.

Also, you greatly misinterpreted the size relationship between the screen capture and the photograph, resulting in the dome being way oversized for the comparison. I tried replicating your results, but simply couldn't. The dome mount in the rear is simply too high and this is what I ended up with. Remarkably similar to my previous attempt, wouldn't you say.



The problem with both comparisons is that the distances do not match the distance to Sskunky's pic of the RP facemask. The screen cap image is furthur away and the TM is much closer to the camera. And just as you say my helmet appears too big on my comparison, your helmet looks way too small to me, in fact it kinda reminds me of the old $40 Don Post Halloween helmet.

ImageImage

Before you can do this item transposition comparison, you have to see if you can match the original picture first. While the two facemasks might look like they are reasonably at the same angle and distance, the RP mask is at least 2 feet further away and is also somewhat more turned away from the camera. So this angle of the dome does not actually fit. It's like seeing the earth from altitude, from high up you can see the distant mountains. But as you get a lower and closer the mountains go over the horizon, it's the same principle here. If you put this helmet on this mask and try to match the original TM picture, you cannot. When you make the facemasks and the helmet the same size and then try to match their orientations, there isn't actually enough room between the top of the facemask and the inside of the dome for any kind of mounting ring at all. Remember, the center line of the dome in the TM picture is over the horizon of the top of that dome and if you could see through the dome and actually see that centerline it would be as much as 1/8 of an inch below the horizon edge. So again, I submit this is not an honest comparison.

Image

Now, before everybody says that this mounting ring could produce the Hoth command center helmet, I want to make the following note. Even if you do not agree that the Bies helmet and that helmet are one and the same, you must at least concede that the orientation of the dome to the facemask is extremely similar on both helmets. As such, I suggest you compare the mounting ring of this helmet to the Don Bies mounting ring. The Bies mounting ring is much taller. In fact, I would say it is almost twice as tall. This is what is needed to produce that very high back end.

I think the appearance of this mounting ring goes back to this being a tour helmet. I believe the front of the mounting ring has been filed down so that the front of the dome will sit closer to the eyebrows and further replicate the ESB appearance.

Image

gonk27 wrote:
Hi John

I'm afraid we can't rely on the Clapperboard reference for the level of detail you were looking for a few posts ago.. Those interviews were recorded on film (probably 16mm), transferred to 2 inch video tape for broadcast, recorded by someone at home presumably on VHS or Betamax? then uploaded to youtube..

That said, we can see a bit of the break to Vader's left tusk tube in the Clapperboard footage. I agree with Lambotour, this also makes me think it's likely to be the Meditation Chamber helmet.


Image


I can see that certainly is compelling. But I cannot ignore the fact that the CBV still has that chevron shaped scratch in the same spot as the PHV and again, where is that cavity at the edge of the neck? I get that the picture is not necessarily sharpe and details may be harder to see, but I can still see a small dent in the edge right where the apex of of the bulge is, and I think we would at least be able to see the white spot or dark spot in this location and it shows no sign of variation there at all. This also means the possibility that this feature exists on more than one helmet and if that is the case then it is a mold feature which would rule out the possibility of the TM cast being underneath the finished surface of these helmets as it has no such feature. That's okay, I will get back to you.


-----
John


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:38 pm 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:58 am
Posts: 10623
Location: Denmark
I matched the face masks. Your comparisons had the RP face mask be a lot smaller than the screen capture, which made the dome huge and the face mask tiny. When the dome is angled accurately on the RP face mask, as seen in the screen capture, the look is identical. The issue is caused by the dome angle and placement. That's also why the Don Post domes look small, simply because they are angled wrong on the face mask, similar to how the dome looks small in the Hoth scene. I'm not going to argue this anymore. The dome mount rising up in the rear as it does on the RP helmet will NEVER make a dome sit in any other way than too high in the back - similar to the Hoth helmet. That does however not prove it is the Hoth helmet, simply that it has the same amount of rise in the rear.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:10 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:45 am
Posts: 233
Location: Northern California
No Humor Man wrote:
I matched the face masks. Your comparisons had the RP face mask be a lot smaller than the screen capture, which made the dome huge and the face mask tiny. When the dome is angled accurately on the RP face mask, as seen in the screen capture, the look is identical. The issue is caused by the dome angle and placement. That's also why the Don Post domes look small, simply because they are angled wrong on the face mask, similar to how the dome looks small in the Hoth scene. I'm not going to argue this anymore. The dome mount rising up in the rear as it does on the RP helmet will NEVER make a dome sit in any other way than too high in the back - similar to the Hoth helmet. That does however not prove it is the Hoth helmet, simply that it has the same amount of rise in the rear.


Carsten, I humbly apologize if you do not wish to argue this further, and you don't have to. I am not trying to attack you, offend you or anything of the sort. But I am also not willing just to let you shut me down either. You may not agree with or like what I have to say, just as I am not happy to see the response I got from Gonk27 about the clapperboard Vader. But I asked the question and his answer was logical and very compelling. It sucks, but it is what it is. I might be wrong. I haven't as yet changed my mind. But that does not mean I won't. And if I am wrong, I will be just as happy to confirm what he's saying, because in the end, as I've said before, it's not about me, it's about learning. It's about getting to the bottom of what actually happened.

I am simply stating to anyone that might try, that any such comparison, including mine, is just not a valid comparison, because there is just too much distortion in the dome size and appearance due to distance perspective. While the images of the helmets may look roughly the same, when you line up the face openings, there is a drastic difference in the size of the domes. The actual size of the dome is somewhere in between, and the only way to really know how the dome actually looked on the helmet is to put the real dome back on the helmet.

The facemasks in these pics all look like they are in the same general relationship to the camera...

Image

...yet note the drastic difference in the size of the dome when you line up the face opening...


Image


..that's because the real relation is more like this....

Image

Also, the RP has the standard 'found part' mounting ring just like that on the stunt helmet and there is no sign that it has been raised in height in the back, only that the front has been filed down 3 to 4 mm
and the indications are the same even for the stunt helmet, as the front of the ring is obviously shorter than the back (Just compare the size of that screw head to the height of that ring wall in the frontal image).
It is the bright putty inside the ring that is giving the illusion that the ring is as tall in the front as it is in the back, because he spread more putty on the top of the facemask and less on the inside wall of the ring
and thus obscured where the ring ends and the facemask begins.

The problem is we don't have any side profile shots of the ESB stunt facemask and it's mounting ring to actually see this angle, so we never noticed it before.

ImageImageImage

-----

John


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:41 am 
Random avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:13 am
Posts: 4
Location: Sydney, Australia
The RP appears to have less height of bondo under the ring at the front than the esb stunt.
Also depends on where the ring inside the dome was sitting.

Very probable it could've the hoth bucket.

Very possible it's a anh left over as said by Ron himself & by indications of the holes in the top.
Does it have the esb neck extension ? That could be a telling factor too,...

I'd take Rons word on the subject , after all for him it is what it is. theres no "holy grail factor" in it as he painted all the screen used lids. it would be just another day at the office for him.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:57 pm 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:58 am
Posts: 10623
Location: Denmark
Darth Obsession wrote:
Image[/url]Image


As you can see here, the stunt's filler is equal in height all across, whereas the RP is low in the front, but is high in the rear - similar to the 20th C configuration, which ALSO has the dome sit like the Hoth helmet, some tour helmets, and Don Post/Rubies helmets, which is raised in the back. But even at that, both dome mounts are equally high in the front - the stunt just has more filler between the ring and the face mask but shorter, while the RP just has a higher mount and less filler. It's the angles front to back between the two that makes all the difference and you can tell even with the slight forward tilt of the RP picture compared to the stunt, that the RP is higher in the rear.

The necks of the two helmets are also very different in shape and width, also complicating things - especially making the rear shot compromised.

And the found part that make up the dome mount has been cut down from the actual source piece, which means that the center ring is a lot taller but was cut to length. Details inside the original used rings also suggests a grid pattern that was cut away from the inside of the bottom ring opening. Something similar to an ABS grid drain pipe.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:02 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:45 am
Posts: 233
Location: Northern California
gonk27 wrote:
Hi John

I'm afraid we can't rely on the Clapperboard reference for the level of detail you were looking for a few posts ago.. Those interviews were recorded on film (probably 16mm), transferred to 2 inch video tape for broadcast, recorded by someone at home presumably on VHS or Betamax? then uploaded to youtube..

That said, we can see a bit of the break to Vader's left tusk tube in the Clapperboard footage. I agree with Lambotour, this also makes me think it's likely to be the Meditation Chamber helmet.


Image


In light of of Gonk27's post, showing a small scrape at the leading edge of the tusk tube on both the meditation chamber Vader and the clapperboard Vader, I decided to go back into the pictures.
Having done so, I have made some discoveries.

My original assessment was in error.

When I originally examined these pictures, I believed that the cavity at the edge of the neck was a flaw in the cast that was specific to a single helmet and therefore came to the conclusion that the two Vader helmets pictured immediately
below were one and the same. I had some reservations, in that the interior nose paint on the two images did not seem to match. The visible nose paint on the meditation chamber Vader has very clean, straight lines that culminate in a nice
solid square corner, whereas the other helmet has a somewhat rougher, more rounded interior nose paint at this corner in this visible area.


ImageImage


Going back and looking at the recently posted ESB hero, I found that it's nose paint was consistent with the second image, and not with the meditation chamber Vader.
Therefore, I am forced to concur that this ESB hero is not the meditation chamber Vader, but is actually a fourth ESB hero used in certain bridge scenes, especially those scenes filmed in and around the large bridge windows.

However, this means that there is still another ESB hero (The clapperboard) yet to be uncovered. . It also means that this cavity is a feature of the mold, as this feature can now be seen on two separate helmets.


ImageImage


However again, when I initially went looking for this feature on present day helmets several months back, I found what I believed was this feature on the MOTM, but shortly after dismissed MOTM from being this (single) helmet when I found that the MOTM was a much better match to the catwalk Vader,
Which could not be the meditation chamber Vader because it has a deeper inset chin grille and the top exterior nose paint does not match. However, when I went back to check out what Gonk27 had said, I remembered that it was there on the MOTM and went back to
take another look. And while there has been an attempt to sand it away on the MOTM, it's remains, including the small crater are still clearly visible.



ImageImage


If one examines this feature at the edge of the neck, you can see that it consists of a roughly spherical cavity, approximately 1/8 of an inch (3mm) wide, there is also a smaller crater like feature at the upper edge of this. This feature is located
approximately 3/16 of an inch (11mm) to the right beyond the apex of the bulge in the neck.

This means it is now a feature on three helmets. However, I do not see this feature on all of the ESB hero images, even in some very clear shots. It may have been covered up, or in the case of the ESB hero that got turned into the ROTJ hero, it may
have somehow caught on something as this helmet has a nearly half inch wide crescent shaped chip in the edge of the neck at the same location that was later repaired but not entirely covered up when the helmet was converted to ROTJ.(See: ROTJ
helmets as told by D.O. - helmet #1). Since I cannot find this feature on any cast, including the TM, I suspect a specific mold for ESB helmets, however if someone has seen this feature on a cast please feel free to speak up.

Also, since the remnants of this feature can be seen on the MOTM helmet, that would further suggest that the MOTM is actually an original screen used helmet.

Image

So, to sum it up...

I was wrong about the clapperboard being the Planet Hollywood, As I know PH is not the meditation chamber Vader.

I agree with Lambotour and Gonk27 that clapperboard is the meditation chamber Vader,

There is another unrevealed ESB hero (the CBV and/or MCV). Note: I see no signs of this cavity feature on any ROTJ helmets
with perhaps the exception of the helmet I describe as No.4 in my ROTJ helmet thread. In the images I have of this helmet,
there is clearly something visible in the neck at this location and since this helmet is also nowhere to be found, I wonder perhaps
if they may be one and the same.

The cavity is a feature seen in the ESB hero helmet casts and as such, is a mold artifact, suggesting a specific ESB hero mold.

MOTM also exhibits this cavity feature, indicating it was cast from the same mold as the ESB heroes and as such not a tour helmet.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:40 am 
Random avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:40 am
Posts: 11
Hi All,
In this Pic is The BoB Anderson Stunt Helmet in the two red areas circled shows the Fine glass Surface Tissue inside a Known Film Used facemask.What some may notice on other facemasks is Chopped mats of fiberglass resined in which do not give a good look. The inside of the Domes had a fine Surface Tissue done as this was exposed and needed to have a cleaner look.
An Experienced laminator would recognize this and also that they used a Dye/Pigment in the resin when laminating the Facemaks and dome which gives a flat matte black look.
As you will notice inside the Stunt Helmet worn by Bob Anderson that the domes Pigment has faded.This might of occured due to age or not enough Pigmnet/Dye was used when laminating the inside of the Dome.

In the Pic of the Stunt Helmet are swatches of original Perspex that show the eyes are consistent of ICI Perspex 504 Brown the Cheek and Neck Area are ICI Perspex 912 Neutral. These swatches came directly from the company in the UK that took over Perspex some years ago. Perspex is exactly what the studios used on the eyes for Empire Strikes back.I dont Know about ROTJ can anyone confirm for that film if the studios also used perspex in those originals as well. The 912 was discontinued over 20 yeas ago and its replacement was color code 923 Perspex which is vastly different.
It appears they used a type of bondo to secure the eyes in place which is a gray color.





Image


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:56 am 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:58 am
Posts: 10623
Location: Denmark
Darth Obsession. Now you are making postulations again that you cannot back up. The TM certainly has a visible, but faint feature in that spot and anyone who had done molding knows that airpockets can appear in similar spots on several different casts from the same mold, while that feature created is not part of the mold. Even though the mark is small in that area, it can still trap air when the casting is being done. The way it is seen MOTM picture is how it looks on the TM. Just because it is there on the MOTM doesn't in any way shape or form make it possible for you to conclude it is a screen used helmet. You need to 100% (or at least 90%) match it to a helmet seen on screen before making such a claim, so please STOP making such unfounded postulations.

I have to ask. Have you worked on any prop helmets? Have you done any molding and casting? Have you tried attaching a dome mount to a helmet? Do you know how difficult it is to actually get it to sit right? Even the slightest elevation in the rear makes the dome rise up in the back. Most of the time, that's where the dome mount touches the dome's inner surface - not so often that the front actually touches and when it does it usually just results in the front being raised up from the face, not the rear. Please stop making assumptions if you do not have the hands on experience.

You are confusing things with your back and fourth claims and you are adding to the misinformation. I admire your enthusiasm and the fact your posts create activity in here, but please be aware of the damage you inflict with your claims, when they are based on way too little evidence. I'm not trying to bash you or your enthusiasm. I'm just trying to push you to research more before making claims. It is okay to post all your theories, thoughts and ideas, to start debate that encourage info sharing, but please be careful with your claims, assumptions and postulations - they damage more than you think.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:43 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:45 am
Posts: 233
Location: Northern California
With all due respect No Humor Man, I read 'postulate' as, I force my opinions upon everyone. I do nothing of the sort, I study, I analyze, I compare and I voice my hypotheses.
And I try to do it in a way that allows other people to see what I'm seeing and hopefully check it out for themselves. I make no demands on anyone. I have never once tried to
tell anyone else they were wrong without a detailed explanation as to why I thought so.

And I guess the year and a half I spent working in a fiberglass manufacturing facility back in 1985 and 86, cleaning and prepping fiberglass car parts for paint doesn't count, because
we never actually made a Darth Vader helmet. But the parts we made were every bit as intricate. And in our facility, a facemask or faceplate would simply be considered a part and
that cavity would have been called a flaw. And it was my job to get rid of those flaws. And since flaws were fairly common, hence the reason for my job at the time, I became pretty
familiar with these flaws. Anything repetitive had to be reported back to my department supervisor and as the molds got older the flaws were more common. There were six molds for
each part we made. And I never once saw the replication of any such flaw without a source issue in a single mold.

So while I didn't make Darth Vader helmets, I still feel that what I did do should be sufficient to make such a conclusion as to 'suggest' an ESB mold might exist. I did not say it was
categorical proof. And in my experience working for that shop, if I saw the exact same flaw on multiple parts, my instructions were to report it to my supervisor so they could locate
and pull that mold and get it fixed. I never saw that happen once.

And while I did see edge flaws like this more than once, they were always random, never in the same spot and never with the exact same size and appearance. Sunken corners? Yes.
Blistered edges? Yes. Distinct circular cavities in the same spot? Sorry, never happened.



Sorry everybody, for not having my usual big photo essay, but I just finished a grueling work week and I really just want to go to bed. :slp :slp :slp :slp

-----
John


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 108 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

All times are UTC


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Blue Moon by Trent © 2007
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Hosted by Freeforum.ca, get your free forum now! TOS | Support Forums | Report a violation
buy web visitors
MultiForums powered by echoPHP phpBB MultiForums