It is currently Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:01 am

All times are UTC


THE PROP DEN is primarily a Darth Vader Prop Discussion Board, but we also deal with other Star Wars Props as well as Prop Replicas from other movies. If you do not yet have an account, set one up, sign in and jump into the Vader Prop Discussions!


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 108 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Author Enter your Message here
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:17 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:26 am
Posts: 1239
Thanks for the pics Mark. Excellent quality. This faceplate deserves its own thread, but I don't believe that is an ESB faceplate. That appears to be a faceplate taken from a RB mold or family thereof. There are several features that do not add up to ESB, but point more towards ANH. I won't get into specifics because we all know we've had enough debates about these things over the years, so I'll leave it at that and, of course, it's just my opinion. It's still an awesome faceplate. It was a little tough to get these screencaps just right, but the only possibility I see of it being screenused in ESB would be this one:

Image

In my opinion, there are a few details that match up. Nothing truly concrete, but some good similarities. The chin vent does seem a tad small for ESB. The positioning and height of the attachment ring would seem to be consistent with the difference in height and position of the dome in the Hoth scene.

In addition, I also see these few things that also seem to match up:

Image

Image

The missing paint on the side of the nose, but it could also be reflection of the light:

Image

Image

Image

and the neck shape seems to be a good match, although I admit the screencaps aren't the highest quality to say for certain:

Image

Again, nothing that is a 100% slam dunk, but pretty close from what I can tell. Thanks again for the pics.

Oh and here are the Baker vader helmets:

Image


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:50 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 10:21 pm
Posts: 478
Location: London, UK
I have a couple of pics of Ron's face mask as well, I'll upload them and post them as soon as I can, although they aren't quite on par with Mark's!

(Had I known I'd be seeing that prop that day I'd have taken a much better camera with me!)

I agree with Pete in so far as there are some similarities with a cleaned RB cast, (no cast in tabs, and what appears to be filled in edges to the lower cheek tubes). One possible theory is that this might have originally been a tour helmet made by Baker that later got re-painted for use in ESB. You can see that it seems to have been painted at least twice as there are double masking tape lines on the right side of the nose (vader's right) showing where a black/grey boundary was previously. He did tell me that it was "a 1976 mask" (his words) but I didn't have the time to go into what he meant at the time sadly. The temptation is to make the mental leap and wonder if Ron might have meant this was the original ANH refurbished and repainted. That's an insanely exciting thought as I've held the thing! but I think we'd need more info on where the original went after filming. I would love to have the opportunity to talk with Ron about this mask in detail, but as Mark said this was a busy event.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:03 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:22 am
Posts: 548
Location: Hampton Wick UK
I may have some more pics as my bro had his camera with him and we all took photo's of it... I'll get hold of him and see if I can post some more.......

Very exciting to think I handled a screen used faceplate whether it be ANH or ESB.......!!!!

Jeremy, I have a couple of photos of you standing next to Ron......:)

Here's another of the top mounting ring and one of Dave as he was Vader!!

Image

Image


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:16 pm 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:58 am
Posts: 10613
Location: Denmark
If it is an ANH... could it be the other painted ANH helmet, or the third spare? I don't seem to remember those have been really documented on where they went except hints, saying they were still in UK when ESB started up. We had a thread here where I believe some quotes where posted regarding the helmets being found in crates or boxes. I believe Thomas, Sithlord, had a theory that at least one of the ANH helmets were painted differently than the one seen on screen - wonder if there is more info on that, whether it matches the Hoth helmet weirdness around the nose tip and other stuff noted? If I recall he owns a larger copy of a photograph of that helmet, but has, as far as I know only shown the small size of it in his avatar.

And Darth Obsession - nice spotting of that pretty distinctive painted nick on the neck on that helmet.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:19 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:26 am
Posts: 1239
gonk27 wrote:
I agree with Pete in so far as there are some similarities with a cleaned RB cast, (no cast in tabs, and what appears to be filled in edges to the lower cheek tubes). One possible theory is that this might have originally been a tour helmet made by Baker that later got re-painted for use in ESB. You can see that it seems to have been painted at least twice as there are double masking tape lines on the right side of the nose (vader's right) showing where a black/grey boundary was previously. He did tell me that it was "a 1976 mask" (his words) but I didn't have the time to go into what he meant at the time sadly. The temptation is to make the mental leap and wonder if Ron might have meant this was the original ANH refurbished and repainted. That's an insanely exciting thought as I've held the thing! but I think we'd need more info on where the original went after filming. I would love to have the opportunity to talk with Ron about this mask in detail, but as Mark said this was a busy event.


Exactly Jeremy. I agree with everything you said. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt and that Hoth faceplate was the closest I could find because other than that, that faceplate does not appear anywhere on screen in ESB. Also, the neck looks to have been repaired and heavily painted. The interior parts he used, appear to be stuff seen in tour helmets, so it's very likely it's a RB cast. Imagine though that it is THE original ANH, lol, however there are a few things lacking even in that respect. Either way, it's a cool faceplate and thanks again for the pics Mark.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:24 pm 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:58 am
Posts: 10613
Location: Denmark
It certainly has that strange bend all across the bottom of the neck that I haven't really seen on other helmets.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:24 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:26 am
Posts: 1239
No Humor Man wrote:

And Darth Obsession - nice spotting of that pretty distinctive painted nick on the neck on that helmet.


Only issue with that is that the clapperboard helmet IS the Hero helmet and the chamber helmet and it didn't look anything like that helmet at the end of filming. It may have sustained damage later on though, who knows.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:28 pm 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:58 am
Posts: 10613
Location: Denmark
I was talking about this spotting.

Darth Obsession wrote:
This ESB hero is primarily worn in the scenes where Vader is in his meditation chamber, and communicating with the Emperor. It has a small circular hole or divot at the very edge of the base of the neck just over a quarter of an inch beyond the bulge or apex on the left side of the neck (Vader's left). It's a fairly clean, deep, circular hole approximately an eighth of an inch wide, maybe slightly smaller. I suspect it was probably an air pocket in the resin, that just didn't get filled in. It does not appear to be a fresh chip or damage, as it has been clearly painted over, but shows no sign of repair. So, as I said, after much searching, I gave up. I couldn't match it to anything.

That is, until now.

ImageImage


Knowing there was this one missing helmet, this feature was the first thing I went looking for. And there was.


Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:50 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:26 am
Posts: 1239
No Humor Man wrote:
I was talking about this spotting.


Yes, I know. What I'm saying is the clapperboard helmet is both those helmets (screen/promo pics), but did not have that extensive damage after ESB that is on that privately owned helmet.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:46 pm 
Random avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:40 am
Posts: 12
Hi all,

Having spent some time in person studying the helmet I posted photos of, and comparing to photos in person, I do not believe it matches the photos posted. Most of the photo matches suggested in this thread rely on very low resolution images and IMO are questionable at best.

Also, I have not seen any evidence that ESB helmets were reconditioned for ROJ. IMO ROJ utilized all new helmets.

The helmet I posted and the ESB stunt are the only helmets I have ever seen that are definitely ESB film helmets. Yes, the MOTM could have been, but if so it has been modified to such an extent that it is in question. The Ron Punter helmet has numerous differences to film used ESB helmets - it may well have been reconditioned in more recent years.

Note also that Ron's helmet contains a fine-weave finishing layer of fiberglass, visible on the inside of the face. I have never seen another Vader face like this - film used, or tour. Where Ron's helmet fits in is a bit of a mystery.

Best
Brandon


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:53 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:26 am
Posts: 1239
BA100583 wrote:
Also, I have not seen any evidence that ESB helmets were reconditioned for ROJ. IMO ROJ utilized all new helmets.


Yep. I've had arguments with friends and foes alike about that very thing. I've been saying for years that ROTJ were all new. There are distinct differences between the two that don't happen just from sanding, adding bondo and painting. There is at least 1 ESB used in ROTJ, but it's easily identifiable. From my understanding of what I was told in the past, Punter was mostly just the painter of the armor and helmets. He wasn't necessarily responsible for the complete package, but since there are few around to discredit what he says, who is going to argue with him?

And in regards to Punter's faceplate, like I stated, there's nothing solid and working with poor quality pics for comparisons. I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt and say "IF" it is screenused, it could only be that faceplate at best.

Thanks for your input Brandon.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:00 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:24 pm
Posts: 361
Location: Berlin
Lambotour wrote:
BA100583 wrote:
Also, I have not seen any evidence that ESB helmets were reconditioned for ROJ. IMO ROJ utilized all new helmets.


Yep. I've had arguments with friends and foes alike about that very thing. I've been saying for years that ROTJ were all new. There are distinct differences between the two that don't happen just from sanding, adding bondo and painting. There is at least 1 ESB used in ROTJ, but it's easily identifiable. From my understanding of what I was told in the past, Punter was mostly just the painter of the armor and helmets. He wasn't necessarily responsible for the complete package, but since there are few around to discredit what he says, who is going to argue with him?

And in regards to Punter's faceplate, like I stated, there's nothing solid and working with poor quality pics for comparisons. I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt and say "IF" it is screenused, it could only be that faceplate at best.

Thanks for your input Brandon.


I'm confused. All new Vader lids made for RotJ at Elstree (with "cleaner" attachement of the mounting ring, no cast tabs, dome sitting higher and some more differences discussed numerous times) - ok, I buy that. Ron's faceplate a touring faceplate? Were there ever any touring Vader lids produced at Elstree? Mounting ring, putty, grills do match ESB used materials. Could it be the Hoth command center Vader helmet? Yep, possible. My personal feeling is that it could indeed be a "leftover" faceplate from ANH OR a casting from the ANH Elstree mold which was later outfitted with a mounting ring and a larger chin vent. The ROTJ Vader faceplates at the archives had a "larger" fibreglass mesh/pattern compared to the ESB lids I've seen including the TM helmet.

And still, Ron said he refurbished ESB Vader helmets for use in ROTJ. Who knows, perhaps only one or two. Why not asking him?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:51 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:24 pm
Posts: 361
Location: Berlin
Ok, now that some old fossiles are back on line (Paul, where are you?) and some new guys joined the club, here's some for you to eat:

Pic of Ron in his workshop around the time of the preproduction of ROTJ (sorry about the bad quality):

ImageImage

On the day I visited Ron at Elstree, I also had a meeting with John Schoonrad, moldmaker at Elstree during the time of ROTJ. He mentioned several names of persons involved in the making of OT Vader lids at Elstree:
- Bert Rodwell, head plasterer ESB
- Charlie Gomez, moldmaker & plasterer
- Ray Tricker, fibro plasterer (according to John, he made the majority of Vader helmets)

I stopped my research there and never tried to get in touch with the persons mentioned above. To the GB guys here: should we pursue this further?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:42 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:26 am
Posts: 1239
All valid questions Tom. I think it's all confusing because for the longest time all that has ever been said is that there were two molds, the RB and the UK. Do we know for sure that an RB like mold was not present at Elstree? Thinking logically though, Punter would have had to take an ESB faceplate, strip it down as best he could, sand down the tabs to the point where it doesn't even show remnants (like the RB mold), sand down the slop that was the ring attachment goop, strip out the lenses, grills and padding, reconfigure the faceplate to ROTJ, do other minor alterations and THEN start the process all over again with painting, ring attachment, grills, lenses, tusks, padding etc. That just does not seem efficient or even remotely practical. It would have been much easier to pull a cast from an RB style mold OR a UK mold and start from there. The old paint lines would still show up in some sections if all he did was sand down the tabs and a few other areas.

The faceplate mold in the archives with the ring attachment I believe is of an ROTJ Hero helmet that was the basis for the ROTS faceplate. I haven't looked at it in a while, so it could also be a tour helmet mold. I'd have to look at it again.

Back to Punter, I wasn't there and I've never talked with Punter, but I also know what I see and what I've seen tells me that ESBs were not refurbed to ROTJ. They are as different from each other as ESB is from ANH. Anyway, it's good to see some activity with the dark lord again and all in a peaceful atmosphere. Well, so far anyway.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:28 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 10:21 pm
Posts: 478
Location: London, UK
BA100583 wrote:
Note also that Ron's helmet contains a fine-weave finishing layer of fiberglass, visible on the inside of the face. I have never seen another Vader face like this - film used, or tour. Where Ron's helmet fits in is a bit of a mystery.

Best
Brandon



Hi Brandon, yeah that struck me as strange as well, but the Funeral Pyre helmet (which was a Rick Baker cast) also appears to have used fibreglass cloth. This is another reason why I believe Ron's face mask might be an RB helmet, as like you say all the other original helmets don't seem to have used this material.


Image


My gut tells me that Ron's mask was touring Baker helmet that was refurbished for use in ESB, although I've not been able to spot it. If it wasn't ever used in the end and got separated from its dome anyway that may explain why Ron was permitted to keep it?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 108 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

All times are UTC


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Blue Moon by Trent © 2007
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Hosted by Freeforum.ca, get your free forum now! TOS | Support Forums | Report a violation
buy web visitors
MultiForums powered by echoPHP phpBB MultiForums