vadermania wrote:
Darth Obsession wrote:
vadermania wrote:
Thanks for sharing these information Brandon, much appreciated. And I definitely look forward to you book.
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Indeed, there is a "certain" look of authentic Vader lids. We experts have developed some sort of a "gut feeling" for that. But there is still much to learn out there for us Vader nuts, I'd be happy to help filling the gaps.
Please understand, that I don't just look at a picture and decide something is what it is. I was on leave for the last six months, stuck in the house and so I spent my time doing a very serious study of all the ESB and ROTJ helmets to pass the time. This consisted of comparing picture after picture after picture to screen caps, exhibit photos and production schedules. Determining if 'this' is possible or not possible. There were many times where I saw that something looked one way in one picture and different in another. And although I live only an hour from Lucasfilm, a tour of the archives was not in the cards. How does one get a tour of the archives?
I get you DO, my post was not intended as a shot at you. I really appreciate that you bring back life to this place with your observations and theories. As a first gen fan of the OT, I have studied all sorts of Vader pics for the past 35 years or so, including high-res scans from 35mm film and some (still) unpublished materials. But the real eye opener for me was seeing and handling the real deal plus all sorts of direct communication with people involved in the making of the actual Vader costume and the OT. Of course memory from some of these individuals (plus my own sometimes
) is fading or they always memorized things wrong like Prowse stating the Vader faceplate was all black and not gunmetal/black.
Please carry on with your threads, we are a nice group of people and together we will rule the galaxy...oh, sorry. Shine some light on the history of Vader I wanted to say.
Thanks Vadermania,
I'm really trying hard not to annoy anyone, unlike in the early to mid 80s, when I answered every question with either,' As you wish' or ' If that is your destiny'. They hated me
I'm really just trying to get people to, just kind of step back, have an open mind and try looking at things from a new angle. I'm not trying to impose anything on anyone, I'm just hoping that they'll look at what I said and what I've posted and decide to check it out for themselves, maybe they have some resources I don't have. I haven't postulated anything that's infeasible or impossible. Sometimes, I get the impression that people think I just look at every helmet and go," Oh yeah that was in Empire Strikes back and you know....", But I really don't, there are definitely helmets out there that even though they're really nice, I just can't find a fit. And while I know the helmets all seem to look-alike to most people, to me, each one is different and unique. I really wish Lucasfilm could've been more forthcoming over the years about Vader. Sometimes I think they just don't even like Vader. And in books like the making of SW or ESB with over 600 pages combined, everything about the physical creation of Darth Vader could fit on half a page, or less.
Hi Carsten, I never said anything about how shiny these helmets are??? All three of these helmets are as shiny as any other ESB. Perhaps you refer to my reference about cleaned up and finished? And I was talking about the casting and flaws in the casting that would usually be cleaned up by sanding or puttying and such prior to painting. On a hero, they would take the time to clean up the casting remove any flaws, but because this helmet was never expected to be used in any close-ups, they didn't take the time to go through and remove all those defects in the casting prior to painting. And while I'm happy to see you using photos,
I don't see the triangle shape in any of those pictures, at best, I see maybe a diagonal line in one of them. And I am not saying that this particular flaw was not something found in other casts, it probably was, but has been sufficiently cleaned up on all those other casts as to not be visible in photos or on screen. On this helmet, it has not been, it is very visible and there is also associated soft dent or flattening in the sharp edge of the neck for the full width of the triangle.
What the F@#&? He's posting pictures of the Enterprise now?While it may seem off-topic, it's not, please read it, I am very worried if you will, about all these Vader helmets. The thought that a real deal Vader helmet might be lost forever, because no one wanted to believe it could be real is extremely frustrating to me. And it harks back to my earlier obsession. Before there was a Vader, there was the USS Enterprise, no bloody A,B,C, or D. I'm talking about the original 11 foot SFX model from the original Star Trek TV series. I have watched and agonized for over 40 years as misinformation, fan involvement and people who apparently just couldn't see what was actually there, have nearly totally destroyed this majestic icon of television history. Just look at these pics, it originally had a nice and shiny, light pearl gray finish to the hull and was very sharply detailed as you see in the picture to the left, and if you look at the center picture which was taken by Doug Drexler in 1974 of the bottom of the model looking up at it (I Photoshoped the antenna dish and the light in the hemispheres) you can see this color. Now look at the picture on the right. This is what it looks like today after they supposedly got done restoring it. This is a total disaster and an abomination.
What the hell were they thinking? How could anybody have thought it actually looked like this? I knew what this ship looked like when I was 10 years old, as there were tons of decent pictures. The answers were always right there in the model, but people chose to ignore what was there and believe what they read in a book or what someone said. They never understood how the passage of time and the environment had acted on the model's appearance. If I had restored that model, it would look exactly like it did in 1966 when it went before the cameras for the first time in its final configuration. And they are talking about restoring it again, why do I have no faith in that restoration either?
And when it comes to why I don't necessarily believe what I read the book, or from those who supposedly know, this drawing was quoted by Herb Solow, Executive producer of the original Star Trek, In his book, "The Star Trek Sketchbook" as being the original plans used to build the Enterprise model...
NO! Not even close.This is an 'excerpt' from the original plans used to build this model. See the difference? The drawing shown above was created for the second season writer's guide by the show's art director, Matt Jeffries.
I drew the drawing below, when I was 15 years old. It's not perfectly accurate either, but it was based totally on what I saw in pictures and using overall measurements of the model that I found in a magazine. At the time I drew it (1977), there was nothing even close to accurate in the way of any kind of drawings or blueprints of the model. And I'm not trying to toot my horn about how well I can draw, I'm simply trying to point out my ability to see what's there.
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Back to this helmet, and ESB helmets in general, if my research is right, I have accounted for all of the original ESB's except one, and it's either the reveal, or one of three heroes, as I suspect the helmet that Ron punter has is one or the other. Three months ago, I was about to post this thread as a follow-up to my ROTJ thread. But I chose not to, because I just decided that everyone would just say, 'nice, but you're wrong'. As I mentioned earlier, I coined the term action, simply to describe the nature of the helmet and in lieu of an actual term used by LFL.
As I said before, I was stuck at home with nothing else to do for six months and so I spent three months, every day, for most of the day studying these helmets. I didn't just look at a picture go oh that's that one. Every time I thought I had identified a new helmet, I set out to prove it. Once I felt confident that I had proven it, I set out to disprove it. It was only one I couldn't disprove it that I was satisfied with the answer. And there were many times where something would pop up, and cast doubt. And I would have to start the process all over again.
So if I am correct, this montage shows all of the individual helmets used to make the film. Starting from the left, the first helmet is the Planet Hollywood Vader and was also used in ROTJ as the 'Luke help me take this mask off' Vader. I have no idea where the second helmet is, if it is now in ROTJ, it is been modified beyond any kind of visual external matchup. The next helmet, is the only helmet that I can verify was fully converted to an ROTJ hero. It is still in the Lucasfilm archives and occasionally goes on tour. The fourth helmet as I've stated above is the 'catwalk Vader' and I believe the MOTM. While it appears to be is nicely finished as a hero it has a recessed light weight chin grille and was used exclusively in the scenes on the catwalk. I believe the next helmet is C-PIH, obviously the next helmet after that is the PA stunt helmet, which is in the Paul Allen Museum. This is followed by the ESB reveal, which is the other helmet that I do not know where it is, the next helmet is the Hoth command center helmet, which are believed to be the Don Bies helmet. Finally, the dummy Vader helmet, which I believe to be C-94. I know the next helmet is still in the Lucasfilm archives and has been seen on display once or twice at conventions and finally, the last pseudo-helmet that Mark Hamill sticks his face in from the back, is also whereabouts unknown, but I suspect probably still in the archives.
I realized that previous evidence might seem to suggest otherwise, but it's all a big puzzle and pieces are missing. And the pieces remaining, if taken out of context can lead astray.
I only ask, that you consider what I've said, I'm not going to go into the all ESB helmets any further.
But I still have a lot of further things to discuss on this helmet in the coming weeks, but my leave of absence is over and I am now back at work, putting in 10 hour days within our half commute on top of it. So I'll post when I can. Besides, it's 1:30 in the morning and I still work tomorrow.
John