Too Much Garlic wrote:
Well, I think I should probably explain my position. If the UK mold was in fact made during the latter days of the ANH production, for whatever reason it was made, I doubt very much that it wasn't tested out and produced casts even then. I don't dispute that the TD could be one of those made at that time - don't think I ever have. What I usually argue against is that it is from a one-off molding and not connected directly to the mold lineage that resulted in the TM and VP as well. I never disputed that the TM was perhaps cast during ESB, so in that sense cast later. But it still connects with the TD and that one molding off the original - it has the tabs, chin vent filler and worms in common: three out of many features that undeniably links them together.
Yes, so it would seem. But also there are some distinct differences. It would be simple for me to just think that the TD is a version of that lineage with a trimmed neck. But it isn't. Did it come before or after? I don't know. But there are some really strange things about it and what makes it different, or similar to the TM and 20th C, or even in relationship to the SL ANH which I've pretty much gone over before. I think we both agree the SL ANH is later on than the TD or whatever the TM predecessor originated from.
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Which is why I bark when attempts are made to make the it something else. Physical evidence makes it impossible.
But we can at least present ideas of what might have happened along the lineage, that is all I am trying to do. And we have these great castings (and more) to compare, so why not? Why not discuss it? Maybe the TD is nothing special, but at least I would like to find out why there was so much done to it and why it differs from the TM, and SL for that matter.
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It all depends on what that UK mold was originally made for (not counting what it was eventually used for - ESB production). It seems illogical to make that mold during production for any reason, even if they no longer had the mold that produced the original screen used helmet and the duplicates. There was no reason to think the movie would be a hit and Lucas would get to film the other parts of his script, so it doesn't seem likely it was made with the purpose of being used for future productions. Which leaves the option of it being a crew member molding to get a few casts made. But again... why? Sure... it was at the end of production... but why not mold one of the spares, why THE screen used helmet?
Exactly. Those are the real questions. So what I did was look at the undercut irregularity and related that to the fact that if they made four pulls of masks from the mold taken off the plaster master, then what about that undercut?
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I know this is not SL's original point, as he was speaking about a mold made at the beginning of production to make an extension to the back of the face mask to explain the abrupt angle change at the rear of the mask. To me the whole deal sounded rather far fetched, 'cause even though the original sculpt may have been a full head, there's no reason, if it was decided to keep the back open, not just to make the second mold off the plaster cast extend further back than the two-part midway point the clay sculpt was perhaps molded as to produce the plaster cast - which would mean the two-part mold seamline would show up in the one-piece mold extending further back on the head, when molding the plaster cast to produce the production helmets.
This is the kind of thoughtful reply I would expect from you. So if they simply extended the mold, wouldn't they do that against the plaster master? Why then the difference in curvature of the undercut posterior to the seam line?
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There's just too many more plausible reasons for that angle change at the back of the facemask being in the casts than an extension done later free-hand on a cast and then remolded. Honestly makes very little sense to me.
Yes it is far-fetched, but there has to be an explanation for that difference in angle of the undercut around the rear and top of the mask. It could be related to the placement of the tabs, or the constraints of wearing the mask with the undercut ending at the seam, etc.
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If the TD displays variations in the fiberglass layup... again, there is the possible explanation that it was a quick "unofficial" crew member casting job with whatever materials were available. Again... ALL theory.
Sure it could have been a quick pull just done on the side. I had thought that for years. But in the past two years I've found evidence on the mask itself that it was worked on professionally. And some of that work was done just after it was pulled as it was integrated in the fiberglass itself, while some was added onto the surface. All of it was in an attempt to correct what might have been thought as imperfections, but not only that, it was an attempt to refine the mask in places, just as we see evidence of that on the TM ESB in the case of the eyebrows, mouth gap interior, and interior of the eyes. Nobody would dispute that those changes were most likely done during the ESB production. And the TD was painted and then used. It was only after it was painted that it was exposed to use with a dome as the signs of wear on the top indicate.
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It still doesn't detract that it was possible made at the end of ANH production in the mold that later produced the screen used ESB helmets and possibly the TM. Sure... there could be molds and casts between the TM and that original mold - but that mold HAD to produce SOME helmets, otherwise why make that mold at that time, for whatever reason!? So yes, the TD is earlier than the TM. In that sense I have never disputed that. But that's usually not what I interpret SL to mean when he says it's earlier, but maybe that's just me reading that with bias. I don't know.
My initial comment was likely too harsh... and I'm sorry if I offended SL with the bluntness of it.
I appreciate that. I frankly don't know when the TD was produced. It seems early, it seems to have original paint on it, but I just don't know. That is why I keep bringing it up. I don't need to discuss the SL ANH because I know where it came from, as to when there is a good guess although that is also debatable. I'm hoping that by sharing my ideas about it, maybe I will get other ideas from this group.