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 Post subject: Re: Visual guide to Vader prop terminology...
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:47 am 
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Cool idea. Now... get someone steeped in trooper lore and fett lore etc to do the same for those costumes!!! :thumbsup


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 Post subject: Re: Visual guide to Vader prop terminology...
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:03 am 
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Excellent :thumbsup and thanks for your effort
This will help out a lot, to define right questions without misunderstandings.


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 Post subject: Re: Visual guide to Vader prop terminology...
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:18 am 
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NoHumorMan wrote:
Cool idea. Now... get someone steeped in trooper lore and fett lore etc to do the same for those costumes!!! :thumbsup


Funny you should mention that because I told Paul the same thing. If someone wants to start a Trooper or Fett (that's gonna be a tough one)thread, I'd send Paul a pm with the breakdown of parts or even the visual diagram.

*The diagrams will be updated soon to reflect some changes.


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 Post subject: Re: Visual guide to Vader prop terminology...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:25 pm 
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Yeah, great job guys! :thumbsup

One question though; where exactly are the so-called whiskers located?


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 Post subject: Re: Visual guide to Vader prop terminology...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:58 pm 
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Nice work.

Do you mind suggestions? Too bad, :lol

Of course this is just semantics. I call the noseslots, well, noseslots because they are slots rather than notches. A notch can be circular or straight. Also I call the "tearducts" nail marks. A duct is like a channel. Although they might not have been made using one's nails, they could also be called cheek crescents...which is technically more accurate. There are also minor things like front face of the cheek triangle, top face of the cheek triangle, undercut of the tusk tubes, teeth gaps, u-shaped part of the nose which I don't have a good name for because there is also the nose itself and above that the nosebridge between the eyes where the NOSESLOTS are :lol People say faceplate but I think technically it is a mask. Maybe Brian could confirm that.

Anyway just my two shillings...

And please please PLEASE.....it isn't a dome....it is a HELMET.


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 Post subject: Re: Visual guide to Vader prop terminology...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:01 pm 
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StarWars Collector wrote:
Yeah, great job guys! :thumbsup

One question though; where exactly are the so-called whiskers located?


Below the front face of the cheek triangles....


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 Post subject: Re: Visual guide to Vader prop terminology...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:27 pm 
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SithLord wrote:
Nice work.

Do you mind suggestions? Too bad, :lol

Of course this is just semantics. I call the noseslots, well, noseslots because they are slots rather than notches. A notch can be circular or straight. .


Funny, I refer to them at times as slots too, Pete and me both mentioned that but we went with notches as it sounded more, well, professional.


Quote:
Also I call the "tearducts" nail marks. A duct is like a channel. Although they might not have been made using one's nails, they could also be called cheek crescents...which is technically more accurate
.

Yeah, another point I don't think is out of place. Ducts, or nail marks. They have been referred as both for a very long time, cheek crescents on the other hand, well, I never heard of that one Thomas :blah


Quote:
There are also minor things like front face of the cheek triangle, top face of the cheek triangle, undercut of the tusk tubes, teeth gaps, u-shaped part of the nose which I don't have a good name for because there is also the nose itself and above that the nosebridge between the eyes where the NOSESLOTS are :lol


The word Brief was highlighted :wink: . It was done brief due to the time frame I had on Friday.

Quote:
People say faceplate but I think technically it is a mask. Maybe Brian could confirm that.

Anyway just my two shillings...

And please please PLEASE.....it isn't a dome....it is a HELMET


I think Brian would call it a mask and the dome a helmet. It's what is natural to us UK guys. The prop terminology over the last few years generally has people call the mask a faceplate and the dome a helmet. So yeah I agree with you but disagree for the masses. Make sense? I don't think the mask and helmet terms have caught on from everything I have read over time. By all means everyone's input is valued, neither myself or Pete is that arrogant that we think everyone has to refer to our terms. However, for the most part I do feel they are accurate but alternative words as you mentioned could be used and we know exactly what is being discussed, for example, nose slots/nose notches.


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 Post subject: Re: Visual guide to Vader prop terminology...
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:09 am 
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StarWars Collector wrote:
Yeah, great job guys! :thumbsup

One question though; where exactly are the so-called whiskers located?


I'm not sure where that term "whiskers" originated. I call it the downward cheek line curve, but even that can be misunderstood.

I prefer nosebridge notches rather than slots because I think of the term slots as a cut where something can be inserted into it. Notch to me is more a removal of material rather than slot, which can simply imply a separation. Also by calling them nosebridge notches you have, in essence, already labeled the nosebridge section.

I don't particularly like the name tearducts either. I believe ducts are fine or even cheek crescents isn't bad, but I don't like nail marks.

Funny how the nose part is referred to as the U shape part when it's more of an n in shape.

Yeah, we can get into a highly detailed diagram of the face and all parts of the costume, I'm fine with that and the labels of cheek triangle etc is ok with me also. Our initial idea was to start with these basic diagrams and expand upon them with input from everyone (yes, even you Thomas :blah ). If a term is used and someone wants to throw another term out there for discussion/approval, please feel free to do so. Our idea (Paul and I) was to have this become a Den member project and a Den exclusive, so to speak. It hasn't been done in this fashion anywhere else, so I'm looking forward to getting a Boba Fett and Stormtrooper done as well. You have, of course, the visual dictionary descriptions, but they seem a bit more technical than they should be. They were great, don't get me wrong, just not the type of terminology that is used on a regular basis. That's what this thread is about.


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 Post subject: Re: Visual guide to Vader prop terminology...
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:24 pm 
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About the whole helmet/dome nomenclature thing. To me the "helmet" is made up of both parts: the faceplate/facemask/whatever and the dome, so calling the dome portion a helmet can get confusing. It's all semantics anyway--if we wanted to call the whole thing a "Mask" which is made up of the helmet and faceplate/facemask/whatever that works just as well.

That's my $.02 for what it's worth (though it seems to me that I'm in danger of owing someone a refund)


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 Post subject: Re: Visual guide to Vader prop terminology...
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:27 pm 
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Well, thats what I was saying to Thomas.

When you see "Darth Vader Helmet" anywhere, on ebay for sale etc. you expect both the dome and faceplate.

Although Thomas is correct that we would call the face the mask and the dome a Helmet here in the UK, when I first got into the hobby the terms were out of place. Whenever I saw that terminology used I noted it never took off. Very rarely did I see the RPF or other forums take on those names and when they did it sometimes confused people.

I don't think there is no right or wrong for it as mentioned but I do feel that faceplate and dome is much clearer and that's why it seems more popular over the mask/helmet option.


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 Post subject: Re: Visual guide to Vader prop terminology...
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:52 pm 
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I use "facemask" and "dome", as to prevent confusion, with the whole piece being a "helmet". It may not be absolutely the correct term to use, but is easily understandable to what you are referring to. There's enough confusion as it is to have to add with it by double-usage of the term helmet for both the top part and also the whole piece.


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 Post subject: Re: Visual guide to Vader prop terminology...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:46 pm 
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Not to confuse matters I just thought I would post some scans I did a while back from the visual dictionary to show just how brief some of this is. The Vader blue prints that feature in another publication can be seen in more detail in this thread, although the scans suck.

Again this is official sources but incorrect for prop terms for the most part

This is the gallery link:
vader-blueprintsmisc-vader-vt2076.html


Image
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Very Brief Picture Guide to OT Vader differences..
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:52 am 
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Does anybody know why the helmet changed from movie to movie?


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 Post subject: Re: Very Brief Picture Guide to OT Vader differences..
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:49 pm 
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I don't think anyone knows the exact answer to that on all fronts regarding the prop changes as some of it made no sense.

According to what I have read and heard it just fitted in line with what was happening in the movie. An overhaul from each evolution if you like. Whether it be Vader looking less agressive from his menacing beat up look in ANH or some thinking that Vader in ROTJ was made to look "softer" for his redemption and the lift on the dome showing more of his eyes.

I have read many accounts for the reasons, some conflict, some make sense, some are just :bs


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 Post subject: Re: Very Brief Picture Guide to OT Vader differences..
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:44 pm 
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Paul, well said.

We know the original screen-used ANH was molded and then castings were made to provide the helmets for ESB and ROTJ. With any new pull from a mold, it's subject to molding, casting, curing issues, how it's pulled, sanding preparation for painting, etc. (and how much something was sanded too.) Then, along the way in filming, props are mishandled, dropped, repaired, patched, repainted, etc. What part all these things play - whether requested or a natural byproduct of being produced by the propmakers - in terms of how they contribute to how the audience perceives the character is interesting. The causes and effects of both intentional and unintentional changes are speculative. One cannot say that Lucas intended some facet or feature of the mask to be, say, exactly 1.3 mm narrower than in the previous movie because with ESB and ROTJ. On the other hand, as Paul indicated, the totality of changes (subtle and overt) do seem to lend themselves to the development of the character across the OT. Sometimes things are intentional, and sometimes things are just dumb luck - which anyone with the right frame of mind would try to chalk up to being, instead, a stroke of genius!

The recent documentary of the making of the ROTS Vader seemed to indicate that Lucas sought to improve Vader with each film. His feeling that the ROTS Vader being the epiphany of the helmet's evolutionary process is obviously disagreed with by many fans of the original trilogy.

There are two aspects of that development I enjoy discussing: the development of his role from ANH through ROTJ, and the emotional subtext (though it's more behind the scenes, and later exemplified by the new context provided by the prequels) in conjunction with how the differences of his costume played into that subtext.

In ANH, we see his mask and armor rough and raw. Marketing materials and press coverage described him as the "Dark Lord of the Sith" even though many didn't know what the "Sith", yet he was clearly the fearsome antagonist. However, he is a bit like a thug, on the end of Tarkin's leash, and even commanded by Tarkin.

In ESB, Vader has gained prestige. He now commands a Super Star Destroyer, and he has his own personal chamber which almost doubles as a throne. We see him reporting directly to the Emperor (who we see for the first time). There are definitely noticable changes in paint finish (paint was sprayed on and the paint job more refined. By contrast, the ANH's metallic gray was brushed on by hand). You also notice the widow's peak is gone (in ANH it helped created the angry look and sense of meanace) and the mask's own eyebrows are more noticable.

Anyways, in ESB, Vader is clearly at the top of his game. There was definitely something that made him appear more elegant overall. (It reminds me of C3PO in tahat when you see 3PO throughout ANH, he had a weathered matte finish, but at the end ceremony, he was given a full presentation polish.)

In ROTJ, we see him side by side with the Emperor, but now we see him also tortured on the inside. When he steps off the shuttle into the landing bay of the Death Star II, you see remarkable level of light reflections off of his dome. (For some reason, I've always felt that ROTJ's light balance and brightness levels seem to make Vader look very dark.) I agree with Paul that Vader looked less aggressive. Along these lines, while in ESB the dome's rim was positioned such that you saw the mask's eyebrows, ROTJ you see the dome positioned above the eyebrows. Whether intentional or not, this somehow this played into the character's sadness. Lucas described the six episodes as being about "The Tragedy of Darth Vader."

Now there are changes that took place from ANH to ESB to ROTJ that perhaps were not done specifically for contributing to the portrayal of the character. The chin triangle was widened in ESB to allow Prowse to breathe better. Apparently in ANH, there was originally no chin triangle, but was made as Prowse had complained he was having difficulty breathing through just the teeth holes.

The armored parts of Vader in ESB and ROTJ appeared glossier than in ANH. The ANH dome had a bit more gloss than most people realize, but you can also see the surface effects of fingerprint grease not properly wiped off. Also, our perception of gloss is based on how a gloss surface reflects light - as well as the nature of the surrounding lighting. In ANH, we see very dark interiors of the Death Star which had very soft overhead lighting and lots of lateral lighting from the wall cutouts. In the Tantive shots you had overhead lighting that was diffused, but the white interiors of the ship bounced light everywhere. With ESB, however, the lighting was more contrasted and you could really appreciate the wetness or gloss of the dome. The reflections looked deeper. It was more refined looking. Similar with ROTJ when we see him in the Death Star II. However towards the end when Palpatine is frying Luke with the Force Lightning, we see Vader's armored parts covered with white powdery oxidation (powdered burnt Luke, and/or smoke from having his hand cut off) which lent a little to a battle-ravaged look. This is simply a surface effect and not a structural effect.

Vader looked really sad (emotionally and aesthetically) when Luke unmasked him. By this time, we as the audience is empathizing with what's left of the human amid the machine. Here was one fearsome Dark Lord of the Sith, and now you felt sorry for him - a weak old man barely able to breath under the imprisonment and horrific weight of all those cybernetics.

Unfortunately, anything we can appreciate from Vader's portrayal was utterly overshadowed by those lousy little Ewoks! :toothy

Much to the discontent of hardcore fans, Lucas sought to improve upon the appearance of Vader for ROTS. The Costume Props Supervisor for ROTS, Ivo Coveney, discussed how Vader's face was asymmetrical, and that with the result of 3D scanning and computing efforts, a mirrored replacement facial piece was created to achieve the first-ever symmetrical Vader. And we know how the ROTS Vader turned out. Somehow, Vader appeared younger and cleaner. Was this the intentional result of simply trying to make Vader symmetrical? It certainly played into the character. Anakin had just joined Sidious and was at the beginning of his apprenticeship. Twenty years later, we'd come to Episode IV: ANH where he had the look of having seen battles for two decades.


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