CSMacLaren wrote:
SithLord,
So the TM is from an ESB era, and the VP is from a ROTJ era?
And both are ANH faceplates?
Do you feel they look the same or do you feel they're from different molds based on the size difference? How would you explain the size difference?
By the way here is my previous post from another thread here of the size relationships:
Here's a short list of relevant helmets from largest to smallest based on cheek width. All measurements with calipers and accurate to 1/10th of a millimeter. Sorry I won't provide the actual measurements as requested by certain owners. But this is the ranking at least. Other features such as crown width, height etc will vary much more with the pull but lateral warpage of the face is less likely and based on multiple equivalent measurements of similar helmets, this system holds true. For example, the variability in size between 20th C is much less than between a 20th C and the VP ANH.
DJ ANH
TM ESB
VP ANH (1st pull copy)
GH ANH master (nearly identical with VP ANH)
GH ANH copy
JB V2 "master"
GH ROTJ
20th Century ESB
SPFX ESB #1 helmet (one of the first pulls)
VM02
Don Post Deluxe
Don Post CA
Elstree ROTJ
SPFX ANH (recent version)
Now the 20th C, SPFX ESB, VM02, DP Deluxe/CA are VERY close in size. Obviously the DP Deluxe/CA are from a LFL source, not from the 20th C.
Based on the owner's accounts the TM is from ESB and the VP is from ROTJ productions. Now that being said, TM and I both agree that his helmet is original ESB. I think one or two other members here with knowledge of originals would agree. The VP has many details of the TM but it's got a lot of cleanup as well...whether that's from the owner as it seems someone here mentioned recently or from the production I don't know. But it is not on par with the TM in terms of size or even in terms of proportions.
If they were really from the same mold, you would expect a closer relationship of size and some indication of a neck extension...the necks don't even match even without the extension. I know things like neck lenght and curvature can be independent of the mold...how you trim it or how it comes out of the mold and warps...but the mouth in relation to the face and the face in relation to the crown are also different on the VP versus the TM. The inside of the eyes is different. The eyebrows are different...the VP eyebrows are like sharpened versions of ANH but the TM eyebrows show signs of being redone. And so on....
In spite of this, yes absolutely where the VP is not cleaned up, it's got the identical and beautiful details of the TM...IN RELATION TO THE ANH....because keep in mind that the TM has a lot of crap left over on it and wear and tear that is not related to the original ANH...for example what happened to the tube ends and minor wear on the crown like scuffing . The depth of the details is comparable...but again we come to the issue of size. I think the TM is from a mask or helmet that was modified during the production of ESB...it could be the original ANH mask that was modified and if so that's really surprising because then we are looking at a snapshot of the ANH original during ESB production. That would be great if true. But I have my doubts. It's possible that we are looking at a copy casting of the ANH original that was modified and then remolded, making the TM. I think the TM is from a different mold from the Paul Allen ESB and someone here I think might agree with me that knows more about the PA.
The VP would probably come from a copy of a casting used as a template for the ROTJ masks. Those masks are all smaller than ANH/ESB...look at the GH ROTJ or the Elstree...excellent pedigrees but surprisingly and consistently smaller than the ANH/ESB faceplates. The difference between the DarthJones and TM is miniscule compared to the consistent difference between the VP and the DJ/TM. Also, the GH ROTJ is much closer in size to the VP...makes sense because the VP came from the ROTJ production...much later than the TM. My guess is that the Darth Jones is nearly identical in size to the Paul Allen and the TM should be a tiny bit smaller...it is in fact smaller than the DJ by a very small amount but not large enough difference to suggest it's from a different time.
At any given time during the ANH/ESB/ROTJ productions there will be a template. From the VP/TM stories it's clear the template is a leftover ANH casting or mold. You can't reuse a mold for six years and for each production they will make a new one and its more than likely they make a mold of the most recent casting so you go down in generation and size. Look at the mask they show for the ROTS template. It's a ROTJ mask, not ANH or ESB.
Whew! I'm getting too
for these long posts.