vadermania wrote:
What I do not understand is that if the TD is linked to the 3rd (non-screen-used "stunt" or "test") helmet, why does it share significant sililarities with the TM and the VP (master) faceplate, such as the pattern of the filled-in lower chin vent and the cast tabs? Even if the TD, TM and VP (master) do not come from the very same mold, they must have had the same anchestor at one point.
Thanks for your post and I have this same question, Tom. And I agree, they share the same ancestor. Everything to me points to the screen mask, but there are some important differences which I'll get into later. And based on those differences, maybe Brian is right?
vadermania wrote:
Does that probably mean that both the VP master and the TM faceplate are also linked to the 3rd helmet, and that the tusk tube ends for the VP and the TM "master" have been "repaired" or "extended" at a later stage to match the screen-used faceplate? I doubt that.
Well, it seems...seems....seems to me...just as a possibility...that the VP and possibly....possibly....possibly the TM originated from the TD. But I do have some evidence of that. The TD ANH has been painted with it's rear side sitting down. The black paint collects in areas and forms drips on the rear section. If one were to sand down those drips, you would see a pattern matching where the drips "dripped". It's really difficult to examine that pattern because the lighting has to be oblique and the features are really shallow.
This comparison I did a long time ago when I had the VP ANH first pull...the black one. This is the right rear side rear of the upper tusk tube.
By looking at the original paint drips on the TD I was able to match the pattern in places with the VP. How is this possible? And that's not all I found that was in common that was unique to my casting. The question is, what is it on the TM and VP that are unique and intrinsic to the TD ANH but NOT part of the casting meaning not in the fiberglass. On the left the TD ANH and on the right the VP first pull...back then I called it the UK ANH.
It was much more difficult to find something like this on the TM. Here is a similar camparison...(I hope you don't mind Tom)
Now keep in mind, the detail I'm showing on the TD is in the paint, whereas it's in the casting of the TM. The same is true for the TD vs VP comparison.
Remember the drip going down the neck on the left side (Vader's left)? I cut through the drip on the TD and it's not in the casting, it's in the paint. How can this be???
Here's an example of when I put the mask under a microscope...
Here's what the chin paint line looks like in cross section at high magnification after cutting through it with a razor blade (ack!).
And at high magnification...
And that's not all, there are two cracks in the paint, one on each side of the TD ANH...that are seen on the TM and VP. These are surface cracks and are not part of the TD casting, yet they appear identically on the VP And TM.
Here's an example of one of those cracks on the VP...the left side one...
The current owner of the VP ANH first pull can confirm this is their mask. This crack is on the TM as well. TM owners can confirm this. It's a real crack...surface stress crack...on the TD mask and not part of the casting. How can this be? Maybe this will give you guys some idea of the level of detail I work at.
So hoow can this be? One conclusion, and I don't necessarily believe it myself but it's something I'm still trying to substantiate, is that the TD is the ancestor of the TM and VP. But how is that possible? The TM and VP come from two different sources at two different time periods...they differ in many ways from each other based on that...not in terms of their accurate details but in terms of size and the fact the TM is from the ESB production (I believe this strongly, I have no proof of that).
These are only my observations. But to me at least they are compelling. I could be wrong and I also try to find indications on the castings that I am wrong, like that they are not related. These are just a couple of examples of what I like to examine on these castings, and what I have examined and try to make heads or tails of.
vadermania wrote:
My THEORY is that either the tusk tube ends on Thomas TD faceplate were broken off at one point (same like the ones on the TM faceplate), and then cut smooth and bondoed/painted over, OR the tusk tube ends on the anchestor of Thomas' TD faceplate were cut short for whatever reason BEFORE a mold was taken from that faceplate to produce the TD faceplate cast.
I agree, essentially, with these two possibilities. I've had a materials expert examine the cut marks on the tubes. Maybe Brian can be of help here since he has all his original tools. I'm not saying he did this but just knowing about sculpting tools might help answer the question. The cut of the TD tube ends was made by a tool that dug into the side of the mouth triangle...on both the right and moreso on the left side. When you cut into fiberglass, wax, or plaster, it's a clean cut. But if you cut into clay, the clay itself will "swell" a little bit with that kind of sharp cut, in other words there's some give to the clay as it reacts the cut, a bit like cutting skin. The cuts on the sides of the TD mouth reflect this. Now, I am not saying the TD is cast from the original sculpture, I am just saying this is what the cuts look like. So from that point of view, it really doesn't seem like the tubes were cut on the TD ANH itself, ie: it's not in the casting. But rather as you say, Tom, the ancestor of the TD had it's tubes cut short, for whatever reason. And the tubes ends as they appear on the screen mask are different somewhat (thinner on the horizontal axis, exact on the vertical axis).
And please understand that am not making any claims here. I'm just talking about what I'm observing on this mask and asking myself what it could mean...or not mean.
vadermania wrote:
Interestingly enough, the "source" of the TD and the VP (and probably the TM, too) was already outfitted with tabs (the VP with proper lenses) and grills AND I think that this "source" faceplate was already painted in a two-tone scheme. Do we know if the 3rd "test" faceplate was ever outfitted with tabs, lenses and grills at the production stage?
Well keep in mind the paint lines or masking lines on the TM and TD match on the nose and left rear side and chin (a mold seam line?) but keep in mind the left rear side, as I mentioned...that line doesn't match the black to gunmetal paint boundary on the screen mask...why is that...I don't know. I agree it had those things but good question...was the third mask fitted with tabs, lenses and grills and for that matter....was it painted? All black? How about foam? The TD ANH has very old foam on the inside.
The VP lenses are sitting in a groove that matches the OPEN groove of the TD, which had the lenses removed. Keep in mind the lenses would sit in a grove that was already there....Brian did you put groves inside the eyes to fit lenses or was that the costume department that did that?
vadermania wrote:
Regarding the cast tabs: do we know of another sample of "original" cast tabs other than the ones seen on the TD and TM (and probably the 20th Century)? All the cast tabs I have seen on faceplates with a "lineage" are identical in size, position and screw position, which tells me that they originate from ONE ancestor, whether this was THE Tantive faceplate or the OTHER/SECOND hero ANH faceplate used for shooting, that I do not know.
The 20th Century tabs are the same as the TD and TM tabs (from the same source, not identical in details). Apparently the Paul Allen tabs are also the same. I agree, one ancestor...but I believe it was molded at least twice, but at least once for the TD and once for the TM. The VP to me has the sharpness but its size indicates it could be from something like the ancestor of the TD and TM but generationally later?
I don't have the answers, all I try to do is look at the details and what they might suggest.