Continued from the RPF thread.....

I would say the ROTJ helmets do feature the hat mount as 2 of them definately do, However, the evidence is out there to say all ESB's were not turned into ROTJ. Some were IMO but not all. The differences between ESB's and ROTJ's are not just finishing touches, the ESB dome is very different to a ROTJ, the reveal at the end of ROTJ is an ESB with ROTJ mesh and tusks, the dome is clear ESB. Look at the thinner eyes on the ROTJ faces compared to ESB also, another give away. I;m just too lazy to post this up right now. I believe Gino is along the right lines but not on everything regrading this matter. You don't need rare pics BTW just look at some screen caps and that's enough.

However here is a crude comp I did a while back of the dome difference in the thumb indent area. A ROTJ dome is very distinctive as is an ESB, I know lights and angles play a part but not by that much at all. I do agree that the piece was derived naturally.

If we're just discussing ROTJ vs ESB, can we rename the thread "RPF ROTJ thread discussion continuation" instead?

Thomas title changed to reflect our discussion

A while back I discussed how the ROTJ dome was almost always worn differently and consistently in terms of how much of the ROTJ mask's eyebrows was not only seen but the space above the eyebrows also visible. GINO didn't really want to concede on this. I don't really care to say who's right or wrong, but the following 9 comparisons (I did a tenth one somewhere) show that the specific ROTJ hero mask that had the most screen time showed more of the eyebrows, indicating a different dome orientation than what was used in ESB.

The following comps are of the ESB on the left and the ROTJ hero on the right. The stunt and the "Anakin de-masked" ROTJ helmets are not used here.



http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b138/ ... otj_11.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b138/ ... otj_10.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b138/ ... rotj_5.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b138/ ... rotj_0.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b138/ ... rotj_4.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b138/ ... rotj_3.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b138/ ... rotj_2.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b138/ ... rotj_1.jpg

I wasnt going to add any more fuel to this (I do get tired of the fighting) but since Paul posted in an intelligent manner...

Thomas. I was mearly trying to point out that your continued assertions that Gino's helmets are not what he says (recasts of GH, VP,etc) undermines his honesty. Whatever else you think about Gino, he is always honest about things. That is not to say he is forthcoming in explaining his source. Thats not a suprise. I only know a bit more than you do.
Also he used the same base casting for all his helmets. They all started ANH and he hand converted them to ESB/ROTJ just like the real helmets were.
On one of the sequel style helmets I think he didnt fully grind off the tabs and the other he did. Just like he says his reference shows it was about half and half.

Now on to Paul.
I concede that some of the domes look different than others. But I dont see how this is evidence of a different mold? I see your comp. The second from bottom picture ESB still has remnants of the "y" crease when other ESB shots in your compare clearly dont have it.
This is due to the various states of sanding and filling and each helmet is different.

I think the reason for the confusion of the ROTJ helmet being different is due to one helmet being onscreen almost all the time. So what if they had reused the "Hoth helmet" from ESB? Would we then think that they made a new mold for ROTJ helmets just because that one helmet looked different?

I have yet to see an argument show the ROTJ helmets are so different as to have been from a different mold. And that is no call to repost all the things you did over on the RPF Thomas.

Because of the way this thread started, what we should do is make a general rule that this is not to prove anyone wrong. It is for our own enjoyment or discussion based on what we see on screen and what we know. That way things get less heated.

Agreed. And maybe that will keep it under 30+ pages or whatever the RPF one was.

Interesting start, thanks guys, including you Midnight Trooper. I changed the title as recommended.

Very interesting about the ANH base for Gino's helmets but I guess that will be for another thread sometime (I could show that isn't the case). Thanks. Since I like how this thread started in relation to the RPF thread let's continue with that.

There are distinct differences in the shapes of the eyebrow flarings of the ESB and ROTJ domes which Paul shows and I tried to hint at in the RPF thread when I replied to Mac. Even if you sanded down the eyebrow flarings a lot, it would be very difficult to get such different curvatures to the eyebrows (seen in profile view, not front view) if they were from the same mold. I was just focusing in the RPF thread on the masks but according to Gino's theory, the domes should be from the same ESB production mold as well. I didn't really get a chance to go into more detail about differences between ESB and ROTJ faces on the masks but I provided that list of differences which would mean there would have to be many many slight modifications to each mask.

Maybe as a good starting point, since my knowledge of ROTJ is least among the OT, why don't we identify the specific screen ROTJ helmets and go from there. Is there just the one hero, the reveal and the stunt or are there more?

One thing I'll mention is that there are hero ROTJ with a boundary on the lower lip/chin area and I've been trying to figure that out because it looks like it is also on Brian Muir's ROTJ mask.

Here's are some HD screencaps I obtained for reference...this looks like it has a pretty high mount...



So what is this? It has the neckpiece with a clear boundary on the chin but the neck looks painted...???



Another view...



The stunt helmet...a good shot of the dome shapes and curvatures....



Here one can see that the ROTJ dome ridge would have to be built up on top of the ESB...there is also a difference in the slope curvature of Vader's right cheek under the eye...with the ROTJ showing more of a slant...indicating a different mold source...not to mention the consistently narrower nosebridge.



Here we see the dome flaring curvature differences...also the ROTJ side of the U-shaped part of the nose was reworked. You'll notice the noseslots were recut on the ROTJ.



Also if it is known for sure certain ESB helmets were carried over to ROTJ, then which ones?

Here is that original ROTJ mask Gino pointed out from CIV next to the Paul Allen ESB original stunt. I've scaled the mounting rings since presumably they were a found item so wouldn't be different between the films. Even though perspective is different, I can tell that the crown of the mask of the ROTJ is smaller than the ESB, and that is something born out by the comparison I did before of the ROTJ next to the ROTS, showing it is quite a bit smaller, yet there doesn't seem to be any disagreement that it is an original ROTJ.

Yep, the domes in ESB are different with the 2 main hero's and spares used. That Y crease ESB is one of the sharpest angles seen in that light, however all of the ESB domes are easily recognised IMO compared to ROTJ. Don't use my comp as gospel as it was a crude example but nontheless shows what to look for.


I know what you are saying about the molds, I'm not discussing that as such, I'm focusing on the differences between ESB and ROTJ. As I said on the RPF IMO 2 were ESB's and you are correct that ROTJ saw one hero take up much of the screen time. I am not dismissing the mold theory entirely as I can't state categorically at this stage for cetain as I have conflicting information in truth. What I am dismissing is all ESB helmets being turned into ROTJ, that's what I disagree with, the differences between ESB and ROTJ are subtle, but enough of a difference is present, that's what my point is. Honestly, half the stuff the production and prop guys did, I would never understand why they made such decisions.

Just in relation to dome height. One thing I tried and tested 3 years ago is that the ring in the dome is vital for the positioning. If that ring is placed too far forward or too far back it can affect the height of the dome when put on the face flange. I know the real rings were bigger but using my old SPFX ring 3 years ago as a test there was alot of hassle getting the placing just right and it kinda corresponds that the screen casts were numbered because of their compatibility in the correct attachments corresponding. I also tried this 18mths ago with accurate rings and the placement was still of importance when putting that ring in the dome.

Pete (Darth Karo) and I were discussing this and we were mentioning about the thin eyes on the Jedi face shown below.

Good topic to bring up here. The RPF thread was a good one as well. As Paul has stated, this doesn't have to be about who is wrong or who is right. I say just give out the information and whatever pics that can accompany a statement and let everyone decide for themselves. For me it's not about proving Gino or anyone else wrong or right, it's about what I know and what I can show, it's then left up to everyone else to decide.

Do I believe some ESBs were turned into Jedi, possibly. It is of course conceivable. Do I believe new helmets were made for ROTJ, absolutely. When you take into account that the ESB stunt went on tour and was most likely damaged during that time (which is why a new stunt would have to be made) then I would imagine they also used the other ESB helmets during the tour and they were either damaged and not usable or not returned. To me that would explain the difference in the height positioning of the dome between ESB and ROTJ. I'm not of the thinking that the height change was in trying to make vader less menacing, just a different artist adding his own touch to the movie and GL agreeing with it. The majority of helmets in the archives are ROTJ and they have both attachments (both screen and tour attachments), but from the pics I've seen, only 1 ESB. Tom has confirmed this and I'm sure he will add his valuable insight.

We can get into the dome discussion and how different ANH is to ESB/ROTJ (whereas ESB and ROTJ changes are more subtle), but I unfortunately am going on vacation today, so I'm left to only show these pics. I only ask that you study the eyes on the ESBs and the ROTJs and decide whether you think it's just a minor alteration or different molds. The last pic shows an ESB helmet in the archives.

It looks like there is a marked difference in the way the brows are finished on those two. It would be easier to see if both helmets pics were taken at the same angle.

The interesting point you bring up is "Were new helmets made for Jedi". It's an interesting theory. The eyes on the stunt tell the tale with the way the brows are finished, especially on the screen used, finished helmet. To me it appears things could have come from the same mold and just been finished differently. Those images do make it hard to say that no new helmets were made for Jedi, because those things ARE different.

Hector

Yep, Good post Pete

After reading through all these information, I came up with some questions:

It was stated on the RPF that things are made in the manner of time and costs during production. In order to do so, the crew just refurbished ESB helmets. This sounds logical...BUT

It would be interesting to have a list here of ALL the differences which are publically accepted and we have proof for between the ESB and ROTJ helmets.

ESB:
1. eyebrows
2. cheeks
3. nosebridge

etc.

ROTJ
1. eyebrows
2. cheeks
3. nosebridge

etc.

Then we work ourselves down the list: What has to be done to achieve the difference mentioned in point ESB 1, 2, 3 and ROTJ 1, 2, 3 etc. and ask ourselves: Were the alterations on the ESB helmets (which were done in order to have new helmets for ROTJ) done THAT EASY, that it would really save costs and time?

If the whole alteration process is as difficult or time consuming as doing a new helmet out of a new (ROTJ) mold, then I ask myself which way the prop people back in the day chose.

As I do not speak english, I hope the majority here get's my point.

Also important:

If you take an ESB helmet (which would be infact a "master" because you don't have a mold yet) you can't allow yourself any wrong step...the ESB could be messed up during the "refurbishing" (accidents happen all the time even a professional prop guy could loose control over his working tools) and therefore has to be thrown away. No faults are allowed during the refurbishing.

And what does "refurbished ESB" helmets mean???

ORIGINAL ESB helmets refurbished or helmets casted out of an ESB mold (exclusively new for ROTJ) which were THEN altered?

Were the ESB helmets reused (with alterations) or was only the ESB MOLD reused in order to make ROTJ helmets? If only the ESB mold was used for the ROTJ helmets, why are there such a few ESB helmets in the archive and floating around? Otherwise the lack of ESB helmets suggest, that not the ESB mold but the ESB helmets were used for ROTJ...

I just can't think rationally anymore, sry