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On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet http://thepropden.aokforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=214&t=4656 |
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Author: | Sith-Smith [ Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:26 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet |
BA100583 wrote: The MOTM helmet grill work matches very closely to this photo: http://www.starwarshelmets.com/2008/UKVadervis80_03.jpg The ESB stunt helmet, and one other privately owned ESB movie helmet, are the only two helmets I have seen with correct ESB grills. They have mounting rings that match each other, but do not match the MOTM helmet. This is the reason I believe the MOTM helmet is a tour helmet rather than film used. Best, Brandon Brandon, do you have any pictures of the MOTM mounting ring? Do you think it's possible the grills could have been changed out over the years with wear and tear and what not? Thanks for sharing the Memo that's very interesting info. -Dwayne |
Author: | Too Much Garlic [ Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:19 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet |
Look at the Dagobah shot. It is not clean and there is a lot of grain obscuring details and shapes and especially edges - the image most plastered all over the internet is sized up from a small picture found on Hyperspace on the StarWars.com website - it is NOT perfect and full of upscaling artifacts. The reason I'm so tough on you is because there has been a shitload of misinformation in the past and it is difficult to get rid of misinformation once it is first out there. It's like banging your head against a concrete wall. That is why most people here are reluctant to make claims, reluctant to just accept when someone states something as fact - especially when it isn't presented in a fashion that is slam dunk. The look, paint finish and scratches are completely different on the two helmets, so zeroing down on just two apparently similarities doesn't cut it. Even at a glance you can see they are different. I'm not saying this lightly, but please be careful with potentially creating more misinformation. Don't start making things up. You jump to conclusions based on too little evidence. |
Author: | vadermania [ Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:49 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet |
Thanks for sharing these information Brandon, much appreciated. And I definitely look forward to you book. I was under the impression that it was already fact that the Vader helmets with the tube-style mounting ring on the table at ILM were touring helmets. I was lucky to examine some of these touring helmets plus some other screen used Vader helmets in person during my visit at Lucasfilm archive in 1995. According to Ron Punter, painter of the OT Vader helmets at Elstree paint shop, most of the remaining Vader helmets from ESB were reworked for use in ROTJ. He sanded, bondoed and repainted them (plus other Vader hardware) in person in his shop. And I've seen pics from that time proving that. Punter has one original ESB faceplate in his personal collection which wasn't repainted for ROTJ. Screen-used original Vader lids were reworked / repainted at different occasions by ILM guys. One of the main ROTJ vader faceplates was outfitted with larger velcro straps - I have pics of that process actually. I have learned many times in the past not to trust images (whether they are screen shots or other photographs) alone when doing my personal research homework. Coming from the movie business myself, I worked with so many different cameras and lenses and I'm pretty much aware of what a lens, lighting and other on-set conditions such as smoke etc. can do to fool your eyes. I have a handful of original props in my collection which I could make look like the real deal in one shot and like a cheap replica in another. One would need very high-res images from the actual props used in the movies right after shooting wrapped, shot at different angles under the same lighting conditions, from the same distance with the same lens to actually compare those pics (which are in fact not existing) with actual Vader props in existence, photographically documented in the same way like the originals. Indeed, there is a "certain" look of authentic Vader lids. We experts have developed some sort of a "gut feeling" for that. But there is still much to learn out there for us Vader nuts, I'd be happy to help filling the gaps. |
Author: | Darth Obsession [ Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:00 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet |
vadermania wrote: Thanks for sharing these information Brandon, much appreciated. And I definitely look forward to you book. I was under the impression that it was already fact that the Vader helmets with the tube-style mounting ring on the table at ILM were touring helmets. I was lucky to examine some of these touring helmets plus some other screen used Vader helmets in person during my visit at Lucasfilm archive in 1995. According to Ron Punter, painter of the OT Vader helmets at Elstree paint shop, most of the remaining Vader helmets from ESB were reworked for use in ROTJ. He sanded, bondoed and repainted them (plus other Vader hardware) in person in his shop. And I've seen pics from that time proving that. Punter has one original ESB faceplate in his personal collection which wasn't repainted for ROTJ. Screen-used original Vader lids were reworked / repainted at different occasions by ILM guys. One of the main ROTJ vader faceplates was outfitted with larger velcro straps - I have pics of that process actually. I have learned many times in the past not to trust images (whether they are screen shots or other photographs) alone when doing my personal research homework. Coming from the movie business myself, I worked with so many different cameras and lenses and I'm pretty much aware of what a lens, lighting and other on-set conditions such as smoke etc. can do to fool your eyes. I have a handful of original props in my collection which I could make look like the real deal in one shot and like a cheap replica in another. One would need very high-res images from the actual props used in the movies right after shooting wrapped, shot at different angles under the same lighting conditions, from the same distance with the same lens to actually compare those pics (which are in fact not existing) with actual Vader props in existence, photographically documented in the same way like the originals. Indeed, there is a "certain" look of authentic Vader lids. We experts have developed some sort of a "gut feeling" for that. But there is still much to learn out there for us Vader nuts, I'd be happy to help filling the gaps. Please understand, that I don't just look at a picture and decide something is what it is. I was on leave for the last six months, stuck in the house and so I spent my time doing a very serious study of all the ESB and ROTJ helmets to pass the time. This consisted of comparing picture after picture after picture to screen caps, exhibit photos and production schedules. Determining if 'this' is possible or not possible. There were many times where I saw that something looked one way in one picture and different in another. And although I live only an hour from Lucasfilm, a tour of the archives was not in the cards. How does one get a tour of the archives? |
Author: | Too Much Garlic [ Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:23 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet |
Notice how the dome flutters all through the Bespin catwalk scenes. They are blowing him with heavy fans that makes the dome wobble up and down, so still photos can be deceiving when determining anything regarding how the dome actually sits on the face mask. In ANH, during the Trench Run scenes, you see the dome not being connected properly by the tabs and potentially disconnected by the pressure from the seat pushing towards the rear skirt of the dome. What I'm saying is that you cannot simply take that as evidence of a different type of mount. All it suggests is an improper placement or external influences or something that makes it sit differently than usual. That's about all you can conclude. I've often said that pictures lie. I also say you need to look at the movie to be able to interpret some pictures. Much misinformation has been caused by people only focusing on a single picture and not others in the same series or even the movie. I am not saying you are spreading misinformation. And if you are it doesn't appear to me to be intentional. You are simply excited to share your findings, ideas and theories. Problem is, in this hobby, that once it is out there, you cannot really take it back. That's why I'm urging you to be careful with what you throw out there in terms of claims. Regarding the Dagobah helmet and the Hoth Corridor helmet. They are definitely two different helmets. One is sharp and has a lot of surface details, whereas the other is soft and smooth. The paint finish is very different on these two helmets. Sure, they do not appear to be as shiny as the other ESB helmets, but the sheen cannot always be used as a basis, as we know that it is common practice to use dulling spray on shiny surfaces in some instances and was used during the production. The Dagobah helmet really is as sharp looking as the one at the end of RotJ during the reveal scene, however, they are also not the same helmet, even though they have similar style paint scheme and sheen. It really isn't as simple as that to confirm. Also, that triangular detail on the base on the neck, is also seen in the Clapperboard video where Dave Prowse is showing off the Vader costume. You even see a similar detail in the same area on the ESB Poster Helmet from some angles. |
Author: | vadermania [ Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:52 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet |
Darth Obsession wrote: vadermania wrote: Thanks for sharing these information Brandon, much appreciated. And I definitely look forward to you book. ... Indeed, there is a "certain" look of authentic Vader lids. We experts have developed some sort of a "gut feeling" for that. But there is still much to learn out there for us Vader nuts, I'd be happy to help filling the gaps. Please understand, that I don't just look at a picture and decide something is what it is. I was on leave for the last six months, stuck in the house and so I spent my time doing a very serious study of all the ESB and ROTJ helmets to pass the time. This consisted of comparing picture after picture after picture to screen caps, exhibit photos and production schedules. Determining if 'this' is possible or not possible. There were many times where I saw that something looked one way in one picture and different in another. And although I live only an hour from Lucasfilm, a tour of the archives was not in the cards. How does one get a tour of the archives? I get you DO, my post was not intended as a shot at you. I really appreciate that you bring back life to this place with your observations and theories. As a first gen fan of the OT, I have studied all sorts of Vader pics for the past 35 years or so, including high-res scans from 35mm film and some (still) unpublished materials. But the real eye opener for me was seeing and handling the real deal plus all sorts of direct communication with people involved in the making of the actual Vader costume and the OT. Of course memory from some of these individuals (plus my own sometimes ) is fading or they always memorized things wrong like Prowse stating the Vader faceplate was all black and not gunmetal/black. Please carry on with your threads, we are a nice group of people and together we will rule the galaxy...oh, sorry. Shine some light on the history of Vader I wanted to say. |
Author: | Vadernsons [ Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:32 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet |
Great to see you back Tom and thanks for your recent post. Some awesome info from Ron punter. Would love to hear more along those same lines if you can share it. Cheers Mike |
Author: | BA100583 [ Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:51 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet |
Hi guys, Here's some more information: I chatted with Ron Punter as well - what a nice guy. Despite Ron's recollections, in comparing film used ESB helmets with ROJ helmets first hand it seems most likely that the ROJ helmets were made up completely new, rather than reconditioned. There are numerous differences, including the type of mounting ring, the way the mounting ring is attached, the way they are labeled, and obviously the grills. Anything is possible, but reconditioning an ESB helmet to have these alterations (and no sign of the original features) would have been a huge amount of work, compared to casting up new helmets. re: the MOTM helmet. The mounting ring and the way it is attached are not consistent with the ESB stunt helmet in private hands, or one other ESB film used helmet in private hands. Here are some images of that privately owned film used ESB helmet. Attachment: ESB_Vad_1.jpg Attachment: ESB_Vad_2.jpg Attachment: ESB_Vad_3.jpg That is the reason that I believe the MOTM helmet is a tour helmet, rather than a film-used piece. The other supporting evidence is the black and white photo that shows a helmet on tour with grills that match the MOTM helmet. But it's hard to be 100% when studying and analyzing these things. Is it possible that the MOTM helmet was film used and later modified for touring use - of course it is. But my personal feeling is it's more likely it was a dedicated touring helmet. Regarding the mounting rings, the rings seen on ESB "screen" helmets and ROJ "screen" helmets are different pieces and are attached differently. The ROJ rings are constructed and attached in a manner that they would sit higher than the ESB rings, though perhaps they were cut shorter to compensate and the overall height on each is the same. Best, Brandon |
Author: | Sith-Smith [ Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:10 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet |
Hi John- I really appreciate all the work you put into researching the mysteries of the vader helmet your passion for these props is very evident. And your eye for detail surpasses most. But I do believe LFL has done a good job of archiving these pieces as well as the moltitude of other film props for us fans. Perhaps someday whatever archived documentation that catalouges and identifies these helmets will all be made more available to fans like us. Meanwhile we are left to speculate here with each other. And it seems when we do that we muddy the water a bit. What's a fact? What's an opinion? I'm not so sure on some of these matters. And getting to the bottom of the matter is what makes all of this interesting. I think we need to take these helmet props on case by case bases. If there is definitive evidance that prooves a piece that can be matched in the film that's great. And I believe you have done that, John, with some of your research. However some of these helmets are still in a gray area for me at least. I look forward to further clarification and identification of these helmet props by you and other experts here on the forum especially those with first hand knowledge or hands on experiance. -Dwayne |
Author: | vadermania [ Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:01 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet |
BA100583 wrote: Hi guys, Here's some more information: I chatted with Ron Punter as well - what a nice guy. Despite Ron's recollections, in comparing film used ESB helmets with ROJ helmets first hand it seems most likely that the ROJ helmets were made up completely new, rather than reconditioned. There are numerous differences, including the type of mounting ring, the way the mounting ring is attached, the way they are labeled, and obviously the grills. Anything is possible, but reconditioning an ESB helmet to have these alterations (and no sign of the original features) would have been a huge amount of work, compared to casting up new helmets. re: the MOTM helmet. The mounting ring and the way it is attached are not consistent with the ESB stunt helmet in private hands, or one other ESB film used helmet in private hands. Here are some images of that privately owned film used ESB helmet. Attachment: ESB_Vad_1.jpg Attachment: ESB_Vad_2.jpg Attachment: ESB_Vad_3.jpg That is the reason that I believe the MOTM helmet is a tour helmet, rather than a film-used piece. The other supporting evidence is the black and white photo that shows a helmet on tour with grills that match the MOTM helmet. But it's hard to be 100% when studying and analyzing these things. Is it possible that the MOTM helmet was film used and later modified for touring use - of course it is. But my personal feeling is it's more likely it was a dedicated touring helmet. Regarding the mounting rings, the rings seen on ESB "screen" helmets and ROJ "screen" helmets are different pieces and are attached differently. The ROJ rings are constructed and attached in a manner that they would sit higher than the ESB rings, though perhaps they were cut shorter to compensate and the overall height on each is the same. Best, Brandon Brandon, thanks again for the information and the images. That helmet has been on a pretty rough ride for sure ;) Back in 1995 when I had the chance to visit the archives, I remember handling Vader faceplates which featured the typical ESB/ROTJ "two step" mounting ring, but some had the cast tabs on top of the faceplate removed and some not. I was also surprised to see the touring helmets mixed with the screen used helmets and components, and all the Vader helmets were sitting mixed together in that one shelf. No idea what was stored away in all those boxes at that time. I have not seen one single ANH style Vader faceplate on that day, but an ANH style dome with that kind of latch inside, same as the one on the Vader touring suit on the Star Wars helmets website. Do you probably know how the helmets are stored today? Are they labelled correctly, did anyone tell them what's original and what not? When I interviewed Ron and other people who worked on the OT some time ago to learn a bit more about the back story of my old TM ESB Vader lid, Ron said he painted a series of eight helmets for use in ESB. There are photographs of Ron in his earlier years posing with a series of Vader lids and shoulder armour resting on a table next to him. He said that he refurbished ESB lids for use in ROTJ, but not exactly how many. One ESB faceplate was left in his paintshop untouched, he still has it. Brian Muir says there were new Vader helmets made for ROTJ. I don't know the truth honestly. My personal feeling is that they re-used refurbished AND un-refurbished ESB Vader helmets in ROTJ PLUS they produced new Vader helmets for use in ROTJ at Elstree as well (perhaps the "cleaner" ones which also had the cast tabs removed?). I've seen that process happening on many other productions when I was still working as a VFX Supervisor. Well, there are still people out there who worked on the OT in the fibro plasteres workshop at Elstree. Some like to stay in the background and are not really willing to answer questions, that's what I found out when I tried to dig real deep. I stopped at a certain point when I thought I had all the information collected that I wanted. |
Author: | BA100583 [ Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:48 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet |
vadermania wrote: BA100583 wrote: Hi guys, I remember handling Vader faceplates which featured the typical ESB/ROTJ "two step" mounting ring, but some had the cast tabs on top of the faceplate removed and some not. I was also surprised to see the touring helmets mixed with the screen used helmets and components, and all the Vader helmets were sitting mixed together in that one shelf. No idea what was stored away in all those boxes at that time. I have not seen one single ANH style Vader faceplate on that day, but an ANH style dome with that kind of latch inside, same as the one on the Vader touring suit on the Star Wars helmets website. Good memory! The tabs / no tabs issue is one of several differences between the ESB and ROJ helmets. The ANH style dome with the latch inside is an ANH-era touring piece, made by Rick Baker. Rick recently posted a vintage photo of a line up of these helmets all together on his Twitter account. They do have a few of the ANH touring face plates in the Archives as well. The Vader costume soft components labeled "Darth Varder" which sometimes pop up are touring components that went with these Baker-helmets. Best Brandon |
Author: | Sith-Smith [ Tue Aug 12, 2014 1:35 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: On the subject of the Christie's - PIH 2012 Helmet |
With these ESB helmets all turning up with such extensive damage to the tusks and tubes. Is it possible they were damaged during filming or between filming ESB and Jedi and just deemed junk. While others were cleaned up and modified for Jedi? And still more recast to fill the need of Jedi? |
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