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The 1994 Christies's ESB helmet, a new look http://thepropden.aokforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=214&t=4631 |
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Author: | Too Much Garlic [ Fri Jun 06, 2014 6:16 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The 1994 Christies's ESB helmet, a new look |
The lightsaber pole is a specific width. Light hits the dome, but is split by the saber being in the way. You cannot put that much faith in just 1 image. Images lie. You need multiples to make any sort of solid claims or conclusions, and if you don't have that, all you can do is speculate. What is clear to me is that the lightsaber pole is covering part of the light hitting the dome and see nothing that in my view constitute damage. Also, that small streak has exactly the correct contour of how the dent at that part of the dome curves, as seen in the other ESB shot, so again, all I'm seeing is a light reflection partly blocked by the lightsaber. |
Author: | Too Much Garlic [ Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:34 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The 1994 Christies's ESB helmet, a new look |
The eFX dome is a lot less shiny than the Dagobah helmet. That one is also in a smoky room, that diffuse the light even more. I'm not talking about anything but light from the stage light(s) reflecting on the dome, but the lightsaber rod obscures some of the light, as it appears to be between the light and the dome, leaving a dark shadow on the dome. Without the lightsaber rod in the way, the lit area on the dome would appear wider and reach all the way back to that tiny strip of light you see further back. Also, in the other pictures and in the movie you see foliage all around and clearly obscuring the light as well, so you have a lot going on in terms of light and shadow. At least that's how I interpret it. |
Author: | gonk27 [ Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:01 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The 1994 Christies's ESB helmet, a new look |
Darth Obsession wrote: There's just no way it can be a shadow, I had to get the light saber pole and the mop handle practically right next to the helmet before I saw a good shadow. And the shadow wasn't broken, it was solid, just like a shadow on the wall and very fuzzy. The screen cap shows the light saber pole is about a foot away from the helmet. At a foot away, there was no shadow at all. I didn't start to see a shadow, until about 6 inches, and that was only on the bottom skirt of the helmet. I literally had to get the pole within 3 inches before I started seeing a good shadow, and literally right on top of the helmet before it was as sharp. This would be because the EFX dome you're using is not as reflective as the dome in that production photo. You're not going to be able to reproduce the effect seen in that still with that dome, you would also need to reasonably match the on-set lighting conditions. Do you have a glossier dome you can use? |
Author: | Too Much Garlic [ Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:29 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The 1994 Christies's ESB helmet, a new look |
I can only tell you that your analysis is severely lacking to make such a conclusion. Since you have no access other than the eFX dome to high end domes and how the uneven bumpy surface actually looks and reacts to light sources and changes shapes when moved, you are at a disadvantage if you are basing it all on grainy pictures. Since you do not have that kind of reference, you need other identifying markers, which simply hasn't been provided to make such a claim. The only compelling suggested similarity presented is the anomaly seen at the brow area of the dome, which could indeed be a casting flaw which could be why it was used as a blow-up helmet for this scene. Still nothing remotely conclusive. You need rock solid evidence to make an identification. Something unique to that helmet only. Distinctive paint scheme, scratches, damage... anything that sets it apart and can be verified from other sources. There's just not enough there. It may be that helmet, it may not be. More needs to be found to link the Christie's helmet to that particular helmet used in that scene before any conclusions can be made and since the Christie's helmet looks repainted... such may be very difficult to find. What would be interesting to me is what kind of detail richness hides under all that paint? But we'll likely never know. |
Author: | Too Much Garlic [ Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:26 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The 1994 Christies's ESB helmet, a new look |
When it comes to making conclusions and claims, you should expect people to comment on it, because we do not take such lightly. What you need to understand is that it requires irrefutable similarities and individual identifiers before anyone should take any claims and conclusions seriously. You need more than you have presented to make the claims and conclusions you do. It may be the helmet. It may not be. There is just nothing presented that screams slam dunk. I love a good debate, but there's simply no need to so adamantly hold onto any sort of claims and conclusions when it is shown there's not enough to back them up. A better approach would be to present your findings, take the debate and then leave out any conclusions until the end, if it is found that you have actually presented irrefutable evidence and identifiers linking the two presented helmets. Making claims and then not being open to alternatives is not a good approach and is what brings about this type of debate. Just present your findings and see where it goes - an already made up mind often refuses to view alternatives and explanations against the claim with an open mind, which makes the debates even more heated. I say you should present your findings on other helmets in a separate thread and if it is later deemed worth merging with another topic, we can always sort that later. This forum is FULL of debates like this that goes back and forth. I've presented several theories in the past, but I have been very reluctant making claims that it is what I think it is... I always leave it open to interpretation. Such as my theory of the screen used ANH helmet having been turned into ESB style and possibly used in the other movies. I had a few identifiers I highlighted, but they were simply not enough to make a claim regarding it being fact. |
Author: | Too Much Garlic [ Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:24 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The 1994 Christies's ESB helmet, a new look |
Darth Obsession wrote: I am all about learning, teaching and understanding. I completely expect comments, I want comments. But all too often, I feel the comments are simply dismissive. What would somebody have to see before they would decide that this is actually the same helmet? I want to make something clear. I like your theory, but it is just that: a theory. It makes you think and makes you look at helmets you didn't think were connected and it makes you look for similarities. So far, there simply isn't enough to say they are the same helmet. Stormtrooper helmets were screen identified from paint peeling and paint details and mistakes matching between screen captures and the real prop. You need the same with any Vader helmet or any other prop, when you want to make any kind of conclusion. Please be aware that I do not question your theory, I question your conclusions, which you simply do not have enough evidence to make. I am only trying to make you see that you cannot make claims or conclusions based on such weak evidence. You need something rock solid. I love the debate and love theories and I've been looking at the Christie's helmet and the helmet during that scene. As it stands now, the scene is just way too darkly lit and the photo reference we have available just makes it impossible to really conclude that they are the same. |
Author: | gonk27 [ Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:33 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The 1994 Christies's ESB helmet, a new look |
Darth Obsession wrote: What would somebody have to see before they would decide that this is actually the same helmet? Well a photo of the Christies helmet showing it's right side at the very least. We'd need to see both props from the same angle in order to spot the same features on each, surely? We've no idea what the right hand side of the Chisties helmet looks like. Darth Obsession wrote: It's very unlikely that you would ever see a picture that is clear, well lit and highly detailed of this dummy helmet, as it just wasn't that important. That's possibly true, but it's exactly the sort of reference that's needed to make any kind of conclusive decision! It might mean we never know for sure where that pyro stunt is. I'm certainly not saying you're wrong by the way, maybe the Christies helmet is the pyro stunt? we just cannot make an adequate comparison with the photos we have, sadly. |
Author: | the-s-collection [ Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:43 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The 1994 Christies's ESB helmet, a new look |
Very well put! I have been following this forum for years and being a collector/buyer of screen used or production made SW props, it is important to note that someone paid good hard money for that helmet! (At the time that owner spent his 10k in 94 for that helmet they all called the winner crazy i assure) today $$$ different ballpark$$$! In terms of speculating and publicly posting speculative opinions about someone's Vader helmet who is not present to defend his baby that was sold thru the same auction house that has sold 100 million dollar single paintings?? This is nothing to joke about as it is so easy for someone (even myself) with NO financial interest in the said helmet (or any SW prop) to sit and post about how it cannot be what you/we think. The collector who won that auction knows the story as did the consignor....nuff said. You see verifiable (hopefully) provenance is part of what a collector pays for when they step up to that plate and try to win it. This is why we are so flippin scared to show any of our stuff publicly on forums but thanks goes to the Guys that have been here long enough to know when to slow down some. No Humor and Sithlord have really earned my respect here and maybe its time to come forward with our UK Helmet.... Carsten, you can have TM contact me as i know why his helmet came secured the way it did.....This is my first post and glad to have had this site as a helpful reference over the years so thanks! |
Author: | vadermania [ Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:01 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The 1994 Christies's ESB helmet, a new look |
the-s-collection wrote: Very well put! I have been following this forum for years and being a collector/buyer of screen used or production made SW props, it is important to note that someone paid good hard money for that helmet! (At the time that owner spent his 10k in 94 for that helmet they all called the winner crazy i assure) today $$$ different ballpark$$$! In terms of speculating and publicly posting speculative opinions about someone's Vader helmet who is not present to defend his baby that was sold thru the same auction house that has sold 100 million dollar single paintings?? This is nothing to joke about as it is so easy for someone (even myself) with NO financial interest in the said helmet (or any SW prop) to sit and post about how it cannot be what you/we think. The collector who won that auction knows the story as did the consignor....nuff said. You see verifiable (hopefully) provenance is part of what a collector pays for when they step up to that plate and try to win it. This is why we are so flippin scared to show any of our stuff publicly on forums but thanks goes to the Guys that have been here long enough to know when to slow down some. No Humor and Sithlord have really earned my respect here and maybe its time to come forward with our UK Helmet.... Carsten, you can have TM contact me as i know why his helmet came secured the way it did.....This is my first post and glad to have had this site as a helpful reference over the years so thanks! PM sent |
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