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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:53 pm 
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"Now here is the question from a newbie. Since some of the JB and SPFX stuff originates from the GH Vader parts. And you say that GH was recast, what do we call JB and SPFX? Recasters, armorers, artists (since they have made modifications to said parts)? "

The way I see it is this.
If you take someone elses' helmet, prop, etc... make modifications to it and then offer a run of them for sale, you need to get permission from the originator of that item before doing so. If you don't know who the originator is, then you can't do it either.


"Also with TM even if the faceplate is a recast, you still got to give the guy a ton of credit for scratch building a set of stormtrooper armor thats incredibly accurate."

Since you asked...
I did give him a ton of credit until the day his faceplate mysteriously resembled a cast from original that had modifications done to it. Appearantly, his initial scratch sculpt wasn't going to be accurate enough to cut the mustard, which is why I believe he abandoned it.
Nothing else on his helmet or armor is anywhere near as close to a cast form original piece as the faceplate. Which just happens to be the most complex piece of the entire suit.
You mean to tell me that he nailed the complex faceplate sculpt but couldnt' get the more simplistic simple shaped armor pieces correct? :rolleyes Gimme a break.
Sculpting/modifying onto a recast does not make it an original sculpt from scratch which is what he claims. It's become a "from a certain point of view" line of thinking that I just don't agree with as I find it very misleading.
I know I'm not the only one who thinks this, it's just that no one else has the courage to speak out about it.

A lot of people don't want to accept this because they don't want it to be true. A lot of people either have or hope to have his items. It's no different than the situation with GH or Matt. They don't want to condemn the person who is responsible for getting them their items. There's no honor in that.

As far as the armor goes...
There are nuances in the armor that simply cannot be replicated in a scratch built sculpt. Also, a scratch built sculpt can never be more accurate than armor with lineage to the originals. Regardless of the superficial detaling.
Simply the fact that the armor was sculpted from scratch, it could never truly be considered screen accurate.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:28 pm 
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GINO wrote:
The way I see it is this.
If you take someone elses' helmet, prop, etc... make modifications to it and then offer a run of them for sale, you need to get permission from the originator of that item before doing so. If you don't know who the originator is, then you can't do it either.


Is this viewpoint applicable only to the TM, or to any make of mask, be it a stormtrooper or a Vader?

In a Vader scenario, if XYZ vendor takes a 20th Century recast and modifies it, but since the 20th Century is out of circulation, that vendor should not have done it?

In this scenario, are you saying the recaster who provided the vendor with the 20th Century recast in the first place is an originator, and the vendor would have to get that recaster's permission before he could begin his own modifications?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:51 pm 
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Regarding the 20th C. You'd have to seek out the one who initially offered the 20th C to the community to ask permission. No one else can give you that permission.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:00 pm 
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What about Don Post Studios and their DP CA and DP DLX? The original Don Post Studios aren't around any longer. They exist in name only, as the brand was bought by a costume company manufacturer that makes all those latex rubber masks you see during halloween.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:01 pm 
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NoHumorMan wrote:
Regarding the 20th C. You'd have to seek out the one who initially offered the 20th C to the community to ask permission. No one else can give you that permission.


Exactly!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:08 pm 
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I can tell you the way people have handled it in the past and no one has ever complained about it.


In the past regarding licensed pieces like the DP helmets, it is not okay to recast them while they are in production of the item. After that...

This only applies to licensed pieces. Not other artisans that discontinue selling their items.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:16 pm 
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GINO,

Thanks for the clarification. :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:50 pm 
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GINO wrote:
The way I see it is this.
If you take someone elses' helmet, prop, etc... make modifications to it and then offer a run of them for sale, you need to get permission from the originator of that item before doing so. If you don't know who the originator is, then you can't do it either.


Does this blanket statement apply to those who base an original sculpt around another prop? For example taking another prop for detailed measurements but sculpting it from scratch. Or in laymen's terms photocopying it in clay.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:02 pm 
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Dark Lord wrote:
Does this blanket statement apply to those who base an original sculpt around another prop? For example taking another prop for detailed measurements but sculpting it from scratch. Or in laymen's terms photocopying it in clay.


That's a tough one.
Something like a vader facemask, I'd say no, not recasting. Because no matter how good a sculptor you are, it's going to be inherantly different.

However a machined part, like a vader tusk I say yes, recasting. You could reprodce it exactly by using calipers and taking measurements. You still are taking the efforts of a fellow hobbyist and using it as a stepping stone without their permisison. If it weren't for their prior efforts, you would not be in the position to have that piece as reference.

Taking someone else's paper prop and replicating it, a fabric piece and reverse engineering it for patterns, I'd consider it all recasting.


You have to ask yourself, are you abusing someone else's efforts as a stepping stone for your personal gain?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:16 pm 
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But utimately we are ALL copying.,aren't we. I mean Star wars was made by film studios' not hobyists. The timeline for making props was weeks and days not months and years.
I suppose we can all justify it in our own heads. But we are all copying other peoples designs and work. I just wish i was as good as a propmaker fullstop,but having a go myself is almost fullfilling a dream job of actually working on a filmset. which is never going to happen. So for me this hobby/obsession is just that.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:17 pm 
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Chefhawk, yes, we are all copying, but there are some interesting scenarios.

Some of us do scratch-builds.

Some of us procure casting masters (positives) or master molds (negative/inverse shapes)

Some of us have original props

Some of us claim we have an original helmet from XYZ source that came from LFL, blah blah blah. e.g. a Jeff-style helmet.

At any rate, we should be careful with defining rules that exonorate an elite and villify a majority.

Basically the pandora's box is opened, but it also changed the community culture. It's inspired people to work on modifications or to make scratch builds. We should try to honor any form of artistic input. But at the same time we should also be careful we do not allow ourselves to try to limit others for the sake of safeguarding the value and exclusivity of our own investments thereby making ourselves an elite and then speaking to people as "have nots".

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:30 pm 
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Gino,

I'm really struggling to think where you're going with this one. As you will see I defended one of your comments earlier in this thread but I'm really having a problem with you apparently now widening your "net"

You are accusing Paul/Trooper Master of recasting a stormtrooper face plate. IMO it is not acceptable to throw accusations around like that without backing it up with more than mere words. If you're going to have a go at people I believe you should have some pictorial evidence to back your theories up. Saying "the face is too complex" just doesnt cut it.

In addition, I take it that this comment....

Quote:
A lot of people don't want to accept this because they don't want it to be true. A lot of people either have or hope to have his items. It's no different than the situation with GH or Matt. They don't want to condemn the person who is responsible for getting them their items. There's no honor in that.


...means you are again suggesting GH is a recaster?

Gino - there is one hell of a grey area here and imo some of what you have done took place in that grey area

Unless you're looking for a full time job as the prop police imo you should back off on this silly crusade

Cheers

Jez

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:24 am 
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So how much does something need to change so its not considered recast then ?

Like if you took an existing piece chopped bits off resculpted certain areas reworked other parts but there are still some areas that are specific to the original piece even though a certain percentage is totally new how do you define something like that ?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:02 am 
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Deffie,

There is a myth that if you change it from 5%-30% you can escape lawsuit, but this is MYTH. According to an intellectual property lawyer's own blog, simply making a sculpture of an image and having enough likeness with that image is potentially copyright infringement.

So there are two aspects here: how LFL views it, and how we as a community of unofficial products self-police ourselves.

We just need to be humble in the sight of LFL's good graces towards the fans.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:53 am 
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... I think the entire page 7 of this Thread should be transferred over to
the "recasting: Good or Bad" Thread, as the discussion went away from
the SFS recast again ... :rolleyes

And to top the cake off with a sad truth:

Every single piece you have in your collections is a RECAST - EXCEPT
they are Original Screen-used Props OR Officially Licensed Products.
Everything that does not fall into those 2 categories are just item copied
without permission from the owner of the rights: Lucasfilm.

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