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 Post subject: Re: Fett Helmet taper
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:00 am 
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Rogue Studio wrote:
I think I have some photos of the original MR when I worked on it I may have taken photos before taking visor off and after...that might help..checking now.

See attachment..Look at the right side of photo you can see top of mandible pulling away from taped over faceplate. Now the two helmets I worked on were different than production pieces in a few ways mostly the ears were all aluminum and not hollow. But I feel that pull away was not pushed in at the factory which would cause the taper. I have more photos I can share if anyone wants to see.

Lee

Attachment:
stuff 018.jpg



Just wanted to see how close what I had matched to the scanned copy.
Attachment:
stuff 046.jpg



Lee, do you have any shots of the MR faceplates/mandibles that would show the inside edge?

I'm going to try to photograph the ledge. It's approx 3mm or so in width, but it may play a significant difference in how the T-visor could have been mounted.

A big question is: did the Master already have this visor ledge to begin with?

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 Post subject: Re: Fett Helmet taper
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:38 am 
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Let me do some digging and see what I have. I'm just going by my memory but I recall being surprised how the MR prototypes did have that but it was after I removed a 1000 screws. I actually still have the screws. Checking for pics BRB.


Does this help? it's about the only thing definitive I have...not to mention it's blurry. You can see the glue they used in that shot as well.

Attachment:
stuff 001.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: Fett Helmet taper
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:25 am 
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Lee,

Hmm.. it would have helped a lot more if in-focus. Any shots of it photographing downwards so we can see the eye's edges of the faceplate? Or any shots of the T cutout's inside surface?

You appear to have painted the red near the visor approx 3mm as is what appears to be the standard, right? I see a gray layer between the left mandible's paint and the visor wall. What exactly is that? Is that glue?

I've just sharpened it, and so far it doesn't quite look like a sculpted ledge within the edge of the mandibles.

Also, Midnight Trooper's point that because this is the Master and the MR castings have a pinch, the castings must have inherited from an intermediary mould. I'm wondering, however, if it's at all possible that they used your helmet only as a paint reference, while for production they worked on an entirely different helmet - one where they actually added a ledge. It wouldn't make much sense moulding off of the Paint Master unless it's to pick up paint details to serve as a positioning reference for the paint scars.

Just thinking out loud.

Rogue Studio wrote:
... how the MR prototypes...


Plural? So there was more than one? What happened to the others? How many in total, and what work did you do with them?

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 Post subject: Re: Fett Helmet taper
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:58 am 
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That is the helmet as I received it I haven't painted it yet. It was being painted by another artisan but I was called in to take over the project. As I posted prior that is glue that you see yes. I'm sure there were several molds for these helmets but I wasn't told how many. The helmets I received were probably cleaned up from an SLA piece directly from a scanned helmet molded and glassed. The helmets were also recast by someone before being sent to me.

I'll dig my photos but I was so busy to get two of these done in 5 days I didn't spend a ton of time photographing stuff. I only have about 67 photos from the event I have a photo of the inside I'm pretty sure but there is tape on the visor IIRC.

Just to be clear the helmets MR sent me had nothing to do with my helmet. They were scanned copies of an Empire stunt type helmet.

Lee

Here's one that shows the pull away on one of my castings of my helmet.

Attachment:
stuff 045.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: Fett Helmet taper
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:18 am 
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Rogue Studio wrote:
Just to be clear the helmets MR sent me had nothing to do with my helmet. They were scanned copies of an Empire stunt type helmet.

Lee


It was a scan from the helmet commonly known as the PP3 , not a stunt helmet.


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 Post subject: Re: Fett Helmet taper
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:22 am 
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Thank you for your unneeded input but PP3 is a title created by the fanboys...stunt is created by the studio. It was not a hero helmet. Man do you ever do anything but vulch forums? Get a life go get laid or something you have lots of pent up angst dude.

Wait for it....

Lee


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 Post subject: Re: Fett Helmet taper
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:05 am 
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Rogue Studio wrote:
Thank you for your unneeded input but PP3 is a title created by the fanboys...stunt is created by the studio. It was not a hero helmet. Man do you ever do anything but vulch forums? Get a life go get laid or something you have lots of pent up angst dude.
Wait for it....

Lee


I'll ignore the personal comments for a change and explain my reason for correcting you.

It' true the studio didnt name most of these things. Hell the archives has a tag on the ROTJ helmet that says "Boba Fett helmet" so somebody had to stick some names to these things.
The only reason the helmet MR scanned became known as the PP3 (Pre-production 3) is because that is the order fanboys thought it fell into when it was discovered. I wasnt around at that time and you were so I cant be held responsible if you dont like the name. I am sure I can think of many examples of poorer nomenclature that has become permanently stuck to a helmet.

The studio didn't label the helmet as an ESB style stunt either so if you want to call it that, that's your business. But I consider that name to be confusing since ESB style stunt helmets were made for ROTJ and actually were designed to be stunt helmets; made out of rubber and also vacuum formed.

It' confusing enough without you trying to make up new names for these things.
Everyone but you would have read what you wrote and gone away possibly thinking an Actual ESB stunt was scanned instead of the helmet that actually was.
Here is them scanning the PP3.
Image

Bottom line is Joe Johnston painted what would become the ESB hero, and what would become called by everyone (except Lee) the PP3 side by side. So they do look very similar.
Here they are, ESB hero on Left, PP3 on Right.
Image

Here is Joe working on the PP3 helmet. Interestingly, the visor is not installed and there is no visor pinch...
Image

Here is what an ESB stunt helmet looks like. It is made of rubber so is a bit wonky looking. Also they cast the ESB hero helmet to make these helmets so you can see the shared shape and the cracks.
Image


Also to answer Mac from his very astute last post which I also agree with; Lee painted 2 prototype castings for the MR paint masters. One topically, one layered.

I will take the liberty of posting pictures of each to save you the trouble Lee. These were public I believe?

Here is the wonderfully done topically painted helmet. It remains my favorite paintjob to date.
Image

And here the layered helmet. Only took you 8 hours in a marathon painting frenzy IIRC?
Image

Glad I could save you the time explaining and finding the pictures. After all I am not getting laid and today is my day off, I got the time. :cool:


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 Post subject: Re: Fett Helmet taper
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:38 am 
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Midnight Trooper,

I know it's a pain to have to probably - from your perspective - tell this the umpteenth time. But thank you for doing that. :thumbsup If only discussed over the phone, that only benefits those on the phone call, and visitors to the Den won't get a chance to read and understand the issues.

Personally, this is not about me taking sides. I only really want to discuss props openly and in an open forum.

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 Post subject: Re: Fett Helmet taper
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:08 am 
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Rogue Studio wrote:
Thank you for your unneeded input but PP3 is a title created by the fanboys...stunt is created by the studio. It was not a hero helmet. Man do you ever do anything but vulch forums? Get a life go get laid or something you have lots of pent up angst dude.

Wait for it....

Lee



Okay, Lee, come on, was that necessary? I've been trying to have Midnight Trooper be more civil and now you say something like this? :ac6

Here on the Den, we have Vader castings that, although are not Production-tied necessarily, have great importance in helping with identification (e.g. TM, TD, SL, DJ, VP, etc.) Just because fanboys created it, it doesn't mean they are unnecessary. For those of us who do like to track lineage, such designations have been incredibly helpful, especially if a particular branch of the lineage has traits that the other branches might not have. "Stunt" alone is too generic.

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Last edited by CSMacLaren on Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fett Helmet taper
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:12 am 
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Okay, here are the photos of the inner ledge I was talking about. Hope this clarifies things.

Image

Image

As you can see, the brow is deep on the MR - approx 5-6 mm thick (just eyeballing it) and roughly twice as thick as the faceplate/mandible edge. But its thickness is roughly the combined thickness of the faceplate edge + the ledge.

So, this is just a guess from someone merely at a learner stage of Fett - but might it be that the factory in China decided it was easier to rear-mount the lens against the ledge and call it a day? To fit it so perfectly into the ledge would require more work.

I'd like to open this up for discussion, if you please. :thumbsup

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 Post subject: Re: Fett Helmet taper
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:31 am 
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Rogue Studio wrote:
Here's one that shows the pull away on one of my castings of my helmet.

Attachment:
stuff 045.jpg



Okay, so the white one is your Lee Malone Fett casting and the painted one is one of the MR prototypes, right?

Either the MR faceplate edge isn't super clean or it has some excess. I don't know if that excess constitutes the ledge like on the MR production helmets.

As for your helmet, I notice that the (wearer's) left faceplate edge might be considered to not be perfectly flush with the lens casting. There is some material between the mandible edge and the lens. Was that in the original plug? If so, could the progenitor have had some clay put in there to assist in closing the gap for the mould making process? The combined width is quite thick.

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 Post subject: Re: Fett Helmet taper
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:57 am 
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Interesting dispatch about that PP3 helmet.
Well done Midnight Trooper,and thanks for sharing that infos with us.
But could you stop with your side blows against Lee in your future post, please?
It's annoying to read that again and again in your posts.
Your personal war interest none here.
As Mac wrote, we are here interested to speak about props, and we aren't here in a nursery.
So just stay at the fact's and let it, please.
Thanks. :salut


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 Post subject: Re: Fett Helmet taper
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:24 am 
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Turrican wrote:
Interesting dispatch about that PP3 helmet.
Well done Midnight Trooper,and thanks for sharing that infos with us.
But could you stop with your side blows against Lee in your future post, please?
It's annoying to read that again and again in your posts.
Your personal war interest none here.
As Mac wrote, we are here interested to speak about props, and we aren't here in a nursery.
So just stay at the fact's and let it, please.
Thanks. :salut


The alternative to factual discussion is the painful realization that we are a bunch of 40-something year old men who haven't had enough sex and we come up with nicknames for Fettish helmets with the letter P in them, even twice. :ac10

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 Post subject: Re: Fett Helmet taper
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:37 am 
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In brief, the ledge is unique to the production MR helmets. This was presumably added at some point when the helmet was in China to aid in the visor installation. The visor is also flimsy and not thick acrylic like the real ones. This lessens the chance for small gaps as seen on the original helmets between the visor and surrounding area.

That excess material on Lee's casting (which is the white one in that picture) is where such a gap must have been clayed in by Don Post before they moulded the original helmet.


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 Post subject: Re: Fett Helmet taper
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:42 pm 
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I too have large size photos of the malone fett casts, + I've taken an independent view, reviewing them look against the ultracell cast. Nothing sticks out as wonky or that can justify the label of "poor casting". Ginos fett is still shown on his propaganda site. Same story when comparing it. My wye is generally pretty good, did I mis something.... Not that I can tell
I concur with turricans comments in a recent post above. Your continual need to discredit the guy significantly takes away from whatever your trying to represent + IMO any developed credibilty. Keep it factual like Mac says, and as he does in his analysis.

Got to take a step back.
Its one thing to give views on your favorite cast or which is better when your in the league of owing one or both. Ie- you have the opportunity + cash to pick one from the other + bring it home for your collection. But to talk like an authority when you have neither opportunity nor the ability to aquire one is as silly as debating whether the lamborgini avendor is better than the ferrari 456, which is better than the merc xyz and the new maseratii "bongorno" is really crap etc etc etc. Meaningless pub talk when its a pipe dream to aquire one. No probs in talk crap pub talk, but don't represent it as the authority and as the final word.
In addition- I don't see any substance in regarding the malone fett as a poor casting in comparision to others, when no other casting has been disclosed. Enough "smoke + mirrors" Let's see the photos of the others, and I suggest you do it in the same independent way that Mac does so very well.

Midnight Trooper wrote:
CSMacLaren wrote:
Midnight Trooper wrote:
Lee I respect your master plug as history and a good representation of the original helmet. But you know it has issues. You know things got distorted further on the Malone Fett. You know you filled in the details. You know your fiberglass work on the copies you made was not perfect.


If he made 10 for his friends and has openly said he's cleaned them up, is that not his right?

Are those 10 the "Malone Fett"?



It is his right and I never implied it wasn't.
Yes those castings are what is known ad the Malone Fett.
I have 360° pictures if you care. I'll be happy to point out the distorted areas but don't think that won't cause a big stink.


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