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 Post subject: PIH ESB Vader Auction July 30-31
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:09 am 
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Here we go again. It looks like you-know-who is trying to sell off his Vader helmet/armor as original production ESB, again.

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It isn't original, and it isn't even ESB (it is ROTJ). An authentic NJ Farmer ESB helmet is more accurate than this one.

This is the same helmet/armor as in that November 2010 Christie's auction fiasco.

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 Post subject: Re: PIH ESB Vader Auction July 30-31
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:52 am 
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What was the main reason for thInking it wasn't original? If its been filled, sanded and given a completely new paint job couldn't there be any thing under there?


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 Post subject: Re: PIH ESB Vader Auction July 30-31
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:29 pm 
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Albatrossone wrote:
What was the main reason for thInking it wasn't original? If its been filled, sanded and given a completely new paint job couldn't there be any thing under there?



Simple answer is that if the dome is ROTJ how could it be a production ESB dome?

But let's have a more in depth answer based on comparisons I did when the Christie's helmet appeared. All images below referring to Christie's helmet or "Zine" refer to the same one in this PIH auction (they are the same helmet).

Teeth gaps are significantly wider on the PIH mask than an original ESB or an ESB promo mask (20th Century ESB):

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The PIH casting is far too thick to be an original ESB:

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The tooth depth on the PIH mask match those of the MOM ROTJ mask. So it is a ROTJ mask, not ESB.

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If you were to look at the inside of an authentic NJ Farmer helmet, it has a white painted number, not a pink painted letter as in the PIH helmet. Furthermore, the pink painted letter is the same as a known tour helmet also in ownership at the time by Zine. There would be no reason to falsify an ID letter if it was an original helmet.

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The mask in the auction has a mounting ring added that is not original, not production. It also has added undercut in the rear, and why is that? Because if it was something like a promo mask (just using the VP ANH as an example), there would be less undercut than an original ESB, so someone added undercut and the boundary of that undercut matches the boundary of the rear of a promo mask as seen in the 50% overlay. There is also absolutely no detail between the tusk tubes and that is indicative of a later casting, not from the production.

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The PIH helmet itself (the dome), is ROTJ as clearly shown by the center ridge shape and merging of the center ridge with the widow's peak as seen below in comparisons of original ROTJ, ESB and the PIH (Christie's) helmet front widow's peak area:

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Knowing what an authentic NJ Farmer mask looks like, we can see below in this comparison that the tusk tubes on the PIH mask are thinner at the convergence point like a later promo casting, and unlike the thicker tusk tube end seen on the original Paul Allen ESB stunt mask. Looking at the left side of the mouth triangle near the tusk tube, we see on the PIH mask curvature on the front edge, just like the later promo mask. Instead, that area shows up on both an original ESB stunt mask and an authentic ESB-based NJ Farmer mask as being straight. Then, also, if we look at the right side of the nose bridge on the PIH mask, it is thicker and straighter on its front and rear edges. In contast, on an original ESB stunt mask or an authentic NJ Farmer mask, or even on a later promo mask, the front edge has a pronounced curvature, the rear edge is straight and the entire nosebridge side is thinner. So this cannot be a Farmer mask from the time of ESB.

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I could go on but you get the general idea. I would be even that upon measuring this mask, that it is nowhere near the size of an original ESB mask and that fact alone would discount the claim of its origin.

It looks nothing like an original ESB helmet. In fact, it is ROTJ. And it also has nothing in common with a known authentic helmet from NJ Farmer.

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 Post subject: Re: PIH ESB Vader Auction July 30-31
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:10 pm 
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That's great Thomas :thumbsup
Thanks for this pic's.


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 Post subject: Re: PIH ESB Vader Auction July 30-31
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:36 pm 
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This is posted on RPF

Lets keep 2012 with positive and logical discussions on Vader

can we not take the grief out in advance again.
You comment on things that you say stating your opinion as fact when its just your 2 year old opinion not ironclad proof.Just blurry screen grabs and comparing pics when one pic taken is shot in the distance which gives the perception that what you see is smaller and taking one close up and saying its fatter or bigger is not being correct or giving a proper example to compare with or being objective and then saying its murphys law is just wrong.
It states the Darth Vader is what it is an Original production from the set of ESB ,if you read it, it comes with a letter from Nicholas J farmer himself which he confirms this is the original he got from Lucasfilm and some repairs he did to it.Not you or I have the right to say it isnt what it is.
Let all our viewers know that when a true farmer touring costume complete was being sold this past december at profiles you said it wasnt even a farmer touring one,which is the same one you saw in 2010 .You Said it wasnt that one that you thought it was from this owner when in fact you were wrong it was the same owner and you stated something that undermines your ability to qauntify what is what.Cut copying and pasteing and writing facts till your blue in the face doesnt make us intelligent but having the nuetrality and objectivity to search and see what if something is what it is and not be blind to be what all experts are is reasearching in a learning capacity and not a knocking one.

when the touiring Vader in December was being sold you said that it wasnt the same consignor it was someone diffrent but you were wrong.

Also it came with documentation from farmer and you doubted it basically calling farmer a liar.
So is another letter from Farmer himself and shipping documenattion from farmer isnt good enough for you will you stand up and call Farmer a liar.
From those who are close to farmer The fact is farmer doesnt trust you cause you twist what you like around to benefit your untruthful position that you are currently stating.Id be careful the road you are going down with all thats on the record with you.He doesnt want you bothering him as you have harrased him enough.He was vague cause he wanted you to leave him alone.
So you cant tell touring apart from the one sold in december from another touring one that you looked at for another person ,you said it was his and you showed you cant tell what from what.but when an item is being sold you stand on your podium making unfounded facts not taking the high road to research and see that the piece it what it is and noone has the right to say without a doubt its not what it is.
Its in poor taste that you take whats on the Propden and try to stir the pot over here.
One of your unfounded facts why you say its Rotj and not Esb was the filled in center strip on the dome,lets touch upon that One, our good friend steve sansweet has on his original vader head with a filled in cenetr strip so is his a fake also and not to mention the vader profiles sold with a letter from george lucas stating it was from Empire strikes back a few years ago the don bies one it has the same filled in center strip.So my point on that is you are also calling george lucas a liar as well.you choose to be pesimistic in your findings and research and that makes not for a Great Expert on Props.

FYI Also its illegal to use a persons name and last name here or anywhere in the public domain with clear intent to Libel defame.you are also posting pics that are not yours nor do you have the authorization to do so.Pics are given to those who tell the truth relaying the info correctly which are the facts and not what is being done distorting things for your benefit.

Why dont you tell everyone how you were given from the consignor wanting to reach out to you his contact details in august 2010 for him to discuss the vader but you chose not to but only to attack him in October-november 2010 acting like this was some big surprise. :nono


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 Post subject: Re: PIH ESB Vader Auction July 30-31
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:42 am 
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Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

Since there was extra here that he didnt' post on RPF, I'll address it here:

Quote:
FYI Also its illegal to use a persons name and last name here or anywhere in the public domain with clear intent to Libel defame.you are also posting pics that are not yours nor do you have the authorization to do so.Pics are given to those who tell the truth relaying the info correctly which are the facts and not what is being done distorting things for your benefit.

Why dont you tell everyone how you were given from the consignor wanting to reach out to you his contact details in august 2010 for him to discuss the vader but you chose not to but only to attack him in October-november 2010 acting like this was some big surprise.



I'll just remind him that he made himself public on the Prop Blog, so at that point his name fell under fair use in regard to that auction.

The photos were publically posted in the auction and on the Den here with the intention of getting input on whether the pieces were original or not.

Also, the consignor in question also should know that when I was offered to provide feedback through an intermediary, I did so and in some great detail of my own time for that intermediary. That intermediary faithfully reported what my impression was to the consignor. At that point the consignor ignored the intermediary and continued to search for others to substantiate what he believed was the case of one of his suits being an original production suit. So there was no "act" on my part, no "surprise". I have all of the emails as well in this regard so I am happy to demonstrate what I know to be the case as to what I did or did not do.

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 Post subject: Re: PIH ESB Vader Auction July 30-31
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:29 pm 
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Case #0010

Documented on the Record



The more you keep coming back all thats proven is go into a monologue cut, copy , paste monologue ,cut copy , paste the more you do this you prove to the viewers you do exactly whats been said.Then you get aggressive and attack then monologue ,cut,copy,paste.These actions are beneath me and only go to show that if anyone replies to your OPINION NOT FACTS you are putting out there you get defensive so monologue ,cut,copy,paste monologue,cut,copy,patse.i think we get the point.So do whats in your nature and prove us right that you'll do it over and over and over and over again.



All thats been proven is exactly typical overwhelm cut copy paste with nothing postive.An expert looks at the piece and not speak of an item he or she has never seen in person.Dont know what else to say but to doubt the documentation is to call Nick Farmer a Liar.

Many people try but you cant rent space in someones head whos been thru alot in life and understands that what we do in the moment is what defines us as caring people and sites like these are made for discussions not for us to bicker back and forth this is childish and making fun of someones grammar is not really adult like or professional now is it.This still DOESNT CHANGE THE FACTS that An expert looks at the piece and not speak of an item he or she has never seen in person and state things to MISLEAD OTHERS INTO BELIEVING THAT YOUR OPINION IS FACT WHEN WHAT VIEWERS NEED TO KNOW ITS YOUR OPINION AND NOT A DEFINITIVE.Dont know what else to say but to doubt the documentation never having seen it or the pieces themselves is BASELESS AND UNFOUNDED and to call Nick Farmer a LIAR.

photos to be compared properly must be taken in the same enviroment at teh same distance under the same lighting composition not by taking one thats far in the pic and compare to one thats shot upclose and then edit to zoom the far away one in close to give a falsehood that they are in the same context is grossly wrong.

People are on to what you are doing you in the profiles auction last year of the touring costume that sold for almost $150,000 you said that it wasnt the same consignor as this piece which you've seen pics as you have previously stated and said that its not his but someone elses ,you cant admit when you were wrong this shows you cant tell what is what and make a distinction.So you have no right to make statements that you know this and you know that.

heres the link The Prop Den • Profiles in History again for Vader
next-vt3895.html?start=15


As for libel when you went out of your way two years ago to contact lucasfilm direclty take an email that christies sent you which christies confirmed and then edit said email to put a different tone and send to lucasfilm saying that christies is saying that lucasfilm is confirming the piece was a lie and the fact that you bashed on ainsworth and how you tout around you dont like him for the public to see but we have the emails were you were going to him "ANDREW MY FRIEND I NEED YOUR HELP" asking for his help to scuttle the auction.You are engaging in acts to deliberately go out of your way to get involved in the sale of something to discredit it to effect its value based on nothing.We see there are no lengths you wont go if your not happy.

having an opinion is one thing whats libel and defame is when you cross the line and contact businesses and accuse people of passing off things as fraud as you did in the past is not a hypothetical but reality.

You have no right to use someones last name and associate it to anything, propblog had the right as that was an interview you have no legal right to publically use said persons name in a libel and slandering way as you have done.Vader can always be talked about its when someones gets personal or states things you know their intentions is a different matter altogether.



For your said actions Ma law.keep hanging yourself as everything you put is documented by Counsel.







People are entitled to there opinion and that is exactly whats going on here you have an opinion based on never looking at an item in hand.



THIS IS YOUR OPINION NOT FACT.


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 Post subject: Re: PIH ESB Vader Auction July 30-31
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:03 pm 
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Thanks, I've addressed this on the RPF.

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 Post subject: Re: PIH ESB Vader Auction July 30-31
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:28 pm 
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It's pretty obvious to anyone who's studied even the slightest bit about Vader that the multitude of parts on this piece is RotJ. And it is a known fact that LFL and especially Lucas generally doesn't know the one from the other - it may have changed, but RotJ pieces are often seen shown off as ESB. It doesn't mean they are lying, just means they don't know or realize the difference. If they do, then it's misrepresentation and lying, but I just don't see that mentality displayed.

We discussed these pieces from this owner before and we will discuss them again whenever they are shown off or auctioned. Paperwork in most circles don't really mean a thing other than what the author believes to be the truth... and when the reality of the pieces just doesn't match up with what is said about them, then it is legitimate to question the validity of the claims.

That is the nature of the game. And to me, the pieces just don't match ESB, as claimed. What I'm seeing are RotJ pieces. With the level of repair and repaint it just further makes it difficult to match it. Is it authentic LFL? Possibly, but uncertain! Screen used? Impossible to verify! Production made? Again, impossible to verify! So we are left with the interpretation of the viewer, potential buyers, and the paperwork that may or may not be for this piece (as it can be argued it could be mistaking these for another set of parts). There are just too many uncertainties regarding the pieces and the claims about it being ESB.

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 Post subject: Re: PIH ESB Vader Auction July 30-31
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:58 pm 
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WOW, sold for $90k!!! I bet the seller's happy, that's BIG dollars.

I said when the tour suit sold that I didn't think any Vader suit would come close to that price ever again, boy was I wrong :eek

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 Post subject: Re: PIH ESB Vader Auction July 30-31
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:36 pm 
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I feel sorry for the buyer. It was strange bidding because I thought to myself do the bidders think it is tour and bid accordingly, because the bidding almost reflects that. Perhaps the bidders thought that it was original but the big detractor is the work that had been done to the helmet. If it was raw original paint/condition from ESB and also could be matched onscreen it would have gone for significantly more. But even taking into account its refinished condition, it would not be able to be matched to an ESB helmet onscreen because it is ROTJ.

Another thing I hadn't pointed out before was that the onscreen ESB masks (not sure if all of them do) have necks like the TM ESB with the neck extension showing up in the rear on Vader's left side, and if anything the neck on this PIH Vader mask is shorter and trimmed more evenly than on an original ESB. I could see someone wanting to refinish the mask, but to also trim back the neck? There would be no reason to. Anyway, it is water under the bridge at this point. I'm not sure why someone who has $90,000 would pay for something without bothering to find an independent appraisal of the item, or at least consult with other collectors who know something about that particular kind of prop. It would be like me spending $150,000 on an X-wing fighter not knowing anything about what makes it original.

But at any rate the snowtrooper helmet from ESB went for $225,000.00. Holy cow. That really surprised me. 10 years ago it would have been worth one tenth of that. Unbelievable.

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 Post subject: Re: PIH ESB Vader Auction July 30-31
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:59 am 
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I'd say, if someone is willing to drop that load of cash on something and not know exactly what they are doing, then honestly... I feel very little sympathy. I'm sure the buyer bid for and got exactly what he/she wanted.

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 Post subject: Re: PIH ESB Vader Auction July 30-31
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:15 am 
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Agree.
Sure someone who has no clue about Star Wars props, just have to much money and simply believe what is written and feel happy with it.


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 Post subject: Re: PIH ESB Vader Auction July 30-31
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:15 am 
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The people bidding so much on movie memorabilia, not just SW, are on another league than us. Most of the cases they are millionaires or billionaires, who want something from the movies they enjoy, and for them money is not an issue. Seems that they accept almost anything an auction house or a COA tells them, at least in this case. They are not interested in the specific details of an ANH vs ESB vs ROTJ Vader but they want that item in their collection. I'm quite sure that these guys don't feel too much that amount of money missing in their pockets.

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 Post subject: Re: PIH ESB Vader Auction July 30-31
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:14 am 
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I was going to add my 2 cents a while ago but this has been discussed before and it's just a re-hash.
The overall piece has some qualities but not the qualities it should have for an ESB, that hasn't changed from the last thread on this. It's obviously a point of frustration to label it that way. The documentation is what gives this item/s the value. I think it's a legit LFL piece but not $90K's worth by any stretch for yet another mis-labelled item.

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