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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:33 am 
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SithLord wrote:
fon wrote:
Thanks Thomas for filling me in. Interesting how we learn so much more in just a few years.

I see that the TM dome is referred to as being from the ESB production mould but yet the mask is not (altered copy). I'm a bit confused by this, didn't they both come directly from the ESB production as a complete helmet?

Again sorry to hijack the thread. Mods please delete my post if necessary.



Yes well the TM dome is an original ESB dome, not screen used to my knowledge. The mask is also (?) from the ESB production but made from a copy of an original ESB mask as the changes to the eyebrows are in the casting, so an original ESB mask would have to have been modified and then molded.



Thats exactly what seems to be the case here ( at least in my opinion from what evidence is clear on the casting)


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:19 pm 
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SithLord wrote:
...the ROTJ masks come from a mold made of some kind of template mask that resembles the base mask for the ESB but is probably at least a couple more generations down. For example the template for the ROTJ masks could have been a casting taken from an ESB mold which is why this ROTJ looks generally like a TM ESB mask. But I can tell size-wise it is proportionally smaller (ROTJ masks are smaller proportional to the dome than ESB or ANH). So there would have been a ROTJ-specific production mold and this helmet by all accounts appears to be from that mold, although of course I'm sure the investigation continues.


This is corroborated by TPD experts and by Brandon Alinger (COO of LA branch of The Prop Store and author of Star Wars Costumes) that ROTJ is a unique mold different from ANH and ESB in post 55 of this topic:

http://thepropden.aokforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=65112


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:45 pm 
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illbethere1 wrote:
Always cool and exciting to see a new authentic helmet enter the fray and if I read correctly, willing to make a run ! Exceptionally cool .
The thing Im curious about though is with this being a 1st gen from the master and from the same UK mold as the TM, the cheek appears to be C free even though alot of the other details it shares with the TM is apparent like the minute paint strokes on the sides and the scars on the neck. Could be the top coat but if it was, it would conceal other marks as well I guess. In any case, looking forward to see whats underneath. Thanks for sharing !


VaderUK wrote:
Ok I'm not up to speed on the C scar at the moment but have a look at this cropped photo. Is this a trick of the light ?
I can't do any further analysis at the moment as I am on vacation/holiday but it's food for thought.



In all authentic casts you'll find a concavity / divot near the center of the right cheek, the outside part of which I think corresponds to the location of the C-scar. With your right thumb against the right side of the nose, if you slide it across the right cheek, you'll find a natural stopping point at that divot. The outside of your thumbprint approximately corresponds to the location and shape of the C-scar. The thin distinct C-scar is most apparent in ANH. It is not as apparent in ESB and even less apparent in ROTJ. But the divot is present in all 3.

I've taken the liberty of creating this video which morphs a screen capture from ANH and one of the ROTJ GS pictures posted earlier. The viewpoint angle and distance is not the same, so it's not valid for overall comparison. I've scaled and rotated the images to specifically focus on the right cheek. There are features which correspond, including the ROTJ GS divot and the ANH C-Scar.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k240/bpoodoo/Vader/anhtoGSHD.mp4


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:53 pm 
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That is very impressive.
I am no lighting or camera expert but I am very logical. The camera angles and lighting would strictly have to be the same for a true comparison or am I missing the point.
I have never noticed the C scar before and just clocked it on a angled photo I took recently.
I will say I am quite the novice.
Whilst browsing this forum my head has been a bit mashed. There are so many opinions .
There is a picture on one of the threads where a picture of Darth Vader is beheaded. It is not a screenshot but a camera image. (Cant seem to find it..)The front of the dome has a raised type of filler similar to mine. Wishful thinking I know but you experts can put me straight.

Greg


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:14 pm 
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The photos shown have been excellent. Taking them outdoors provides nice ambient lighting to clearly see the close-up details. And that's what the experts here (much more knowledgeable than me) often use to determine origin.

And yes when comparing one helmet to another through photographs by overlaying them it is important to have the same distance and relative an angle to what you're photographing for all the features to line up, particular those which span depth. Otherwise a perspective distortion is introduced that can cause even the same helmet to look different when photographed from different distances. I studied this ad nauseum a few years ago and provided the following write-up which has a couple of image examples that demonstrate and quantify this effect.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B13YyeojRHKeUzdLVHFucnV6X1E/view?usp=drivesdk


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:15 pm 
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VaderUK wrote:
There is a picture on one of the threads where a picture of Darth Vader is beheaded. It is not a screenshot but a camera image. (Cant seem to find it..)The front of the dome has a raised type of filler similar to mine. Wishful thinking I know but you experts can put me straight.

Greg


Is the camera image you mention any of these?

Image

Image


Image


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:34 pm 
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Hello banthapoodo. It's the first pic. I'm mistaken. :nono


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:24 am 
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Ah ok. Those helmets are respectively the Dagobah, Don Bies ESB, and Funeral Pyre. I threw in that last one because a glimpse of the dome connector is visible and because the orange color looked similar to the color in some areas of yours. But that would have been a major restoration, and the Funeral Pyre one is generally regarded as being from a Rick Baker (RB) mold that would not have had the 3M tabs at the top of the mask.


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member... The (GS RO
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:10 am 
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it is my understanding that the funeral.pyre helmet was actually one of the 13 tour helmets produced by rick baker/greg botin/ don post for promotional appearances in the 1970s. as the original suit Kermit Eller wore was cloned into 13 touring suits, then GH made 13 castings of one of those helmets.... I happen to own GH ANH 13, and its brother, GH ROTJ 13...... the ANH matches the funeral pyre, and the ROTJ has a two step mounting ring with 3 screw heads.. once i figure how to load pics ill start a thread... THIS NEW ROTJ. is very exciring, akin to simons trooper suit before it became RS


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member... The (GS RO
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:52 am 
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trooper18938 wrote:
it is my understanding that the funeral.pyre helmet was actually one of the 13 tour helmets produced by rick baker/greg botin/ don post for promotional appearances in the 1970s. as the original suit Kermit Eller wore was cloned into 13 touring suits, then GH made 13 castings of one of those helmets.... I happen to own GH ANH 13, and its brother, GH ROTJ 13...... the ANH matches the funeral pyre, and the ROTJ has a two step mounting ring with 3 screw heads.. once i figure how to load pics ill start a thread... THIS NEW ROTJ. is very exciring, akin to simons trooper suit before it became RS


Looking forward to the pic's :thumbsup


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member... The (GS RO
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:03 pm 
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Here here.
Post them up. Looking forward to it!


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member... The (GS RO
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:56 pm 
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I was under the impression that the Jeff White/Fiberdyne/GH type Vader lid is an "idealized" version created at Don Post Studios.


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member... The (GS RO
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:40 pm 
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vadermania wrote:
I was under the impression that the Jeff White/Fiberdyne/GH type Vader lid is an "idealized" version created at Don Post Studios.


This is correct. I owned one of the Ghost Host helmets 10 years ago (!) and I can confirm it is not a copy of the Rick Baker helmet but copied from a helmet that was considerably re-worked by Don Post Studios. In its day it was one of the go-to helmets and certainly one of the best representations of the ANH Vader -- the Dome is still one of the best options that is more readily available. Ghost Host is a member here and would certainly be able to speak to this directly.

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member... The (GS RO
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:41 pm 
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Attachment:
enhanced.vader.paint.jpg
Attachment:
bondo.removed.jpg
Attachment:
IMAG0058.jpg
Hello All, Some more pics of the clean up process. The dome is taking a back seat at the moment.
I started off by using water and detergent to clean off the 35+ years of grime. The grill is now silver and there was what looked like a lot of nicotine staining. It is still ongoing. The painting is all over the place so with advice ,rubbed off the paint with acetone and cotton wool. Problem is I am kind of stuck because another type of paint on it or lacquer will not budge.
The bondo on the tab area is now removed. What a nightmare.I eventually customised the end of a soldering iron and guitar pick and slowly picked away at it. Under the circumstances I am pleased with the result.


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member... The (GS RO
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:47 pm 
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Attachment:
IMAG0126.jpg
Attachment:
IMAG0117.jpg
Additional pictures. It looks like a relic from the past.


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