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 Post subject: Re: SW Costumes: Six ESB Darth Vader helmets & 2-3 stunt hel
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:01 am 
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Glad to see you here Brandon! :thumbsup Your book is awesome!

Sergiu


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 Post subject: Re: SW Costumes: Six ESB Darth Vader helmets & 2-3 stunt hel
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:29 pm 
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Thanks for the feedback, Brandon. Looks like what you have observed directly in your research, not surprisingly, disagrees with what Gino, who also was in the archives, contended, namely that the ROTJ helmets were refurbished ESB:

http://www.therpf.com/f79/origins-rotj-vader-helmets-jy-thread-continuation-65622/index7.html

Post #158 my response to that contention:

Quote:
Jul 2, 2009, 2:23 PM - Re: Origins of the ROTJ Vader helmets: JY thread continuation #158

Quote:
GINO said:
ALL the helmets made for ESB came from a mold taken directly off the screen used ANH.
The faceplates and domes were individually modified for conversion into what we see in ESB. The ESB helmets were refurbished for use in ROTJ.
No brand new helmets were created for ROTJ.



The conversion from the ANH style base helmet includes the following mods.
These mods were performed individually on each helmet for ESB.
- Adding the found part flange to the top of the facemask, then hand bondo-ing the gap in the front. Real individual screws are added into the flange to better register with the corresponding ring inside the dome.
Gino, show me an original ROTJ mask that has an added on mounting ring base.

Quote:
Gino said:
No, no, no, no, no.
The ROTJ helmets are the refurbished ESB helmets.
I believe the helmet mold in the archives (the one that produces the other set of base helmets) came about like this.
A base facemask & helmet casting from the UK mold (that spawned all the screen used ESB helmets and was made from the original ANH helmet) was sent to the US and modified (tabs removed) then remolded for the purpose of creating some of the early promo costumes in the US.


So how did you recently come to the deduction that ESB helmets came from a mold in the UK? Hmmm? You are just taking what I've stated before based on the SL/TD/TM story.

The screen ANH helmet was molded in the UK by Rick Baker. That mold went to ILM and is THE ANH mold in the archives. But it had limited use, for promotional helmets like the MP (the ESB Vader poster helmet) and the ones that Don made later on. Back in the UK, the screen helmet was molded a second time....either before or after the Rick Baker mold (I think before naturally since the tabs are intact, among other things...the only other option being that new tabs were added to the mask prior to the tour). That mold was used to make the ESB masks/helmets. Based on Brian Muir's new ROTJ helmet, it could also have been used to make the ROTJ helmets, but otherwise I think an ESB helmet was used as a template to make the six ROTJ helmets (at least six). It would not make any sense given the fight scenes in ROTJ to reuse three-year old castings that saw heavy production use.

Another reason that the ROTJ helmets could not be modified ESB originals is that every ROTJ casting with authentic lineage (the Elstree, the GH, for example) have proportionally smaller mouth triangles than an ANH/ESB mask, and they themselves are smaller as well than any ANH/ESB derived authentic mask. Now you could say this is BS, and you cannot extrapolate the size of these masks to the original ROTJ. But, you can. The ROTS mask was based on a ROTJ template clearly seen in the behind the scenes DVD. Yes, it was Trisha Bigger who thought the OT mask was asymmetrical (sagging as she put it) but what the guys did in Sydney was take the half of the OT mask that had the more fallen cheek (!!!). So in essence they replicated the bad side, not the good side of the mask, yielding a sad looking ROTS Vader face. Now back to the relationship of the ROTS and ROTJ masks. The original ROTS mask is nearly the same size as authentic ROTJ masks and significantly smaller than any ANH/ESB mask. Furthermore, the mouth triangle of the ROTS mask is the same size proportionally as a ROTJ mask, but not an ANH/ESB mask. If the production crew of ROTJ used an original ESB as a template, and then that was molded as a template for use in ROTS, then the ROTS mask should have the proportions and features of an ANH/ESB mask and it doesn't, because the ROTJ and ANH/ESB masks are markedly different and not just in the way the ROTJ masks were refined. So apart from there being no logic to reusing Vader helmets from ESB when they had millions of dollars to make new helmets that would stand the rigors of the ROTJ production, the ROTJ masks have lent their own proportional signature that persists in ROTS. That is why the ROTS mask looks small in relation to the helmet. Because it is in relation to ANH/ESB. It takes more than theories to come up with lineage, it takes direct study of authentic castings in relation to the originals.

Quote:
Gino said:
Now mind you. Anyone from the production crew who happened to score one of the base helmets from either the UK mold, or the US promo mold would be able to recast it and introduce new authentic castings into the public domain and no one would be able to tell the difference. If you think you can, you are fooling yourself. All that can be determined is whether it's lineage came from the first gen ANH mold in the UK, or the second gen mold in the US (the one for promo purposes). Thomas your SL helmet comes from that mold.


I can tell the difference but you cannot because you haven't examined any castings either from the UK or the US molds. If you did you would know how masks from those molds differ from ROTJ. And I don't need you to tell me where my helmet came from. People questioned me before on its source and Don Bies confirms the mold Rick Baker produced and that resides in the archives. The SL came from that mold in 1988. The Darth Jones helmet came from that same mold in 1992.

So now that you accept the idea I put forward of a UK and US mold, which mold do your ANH/ESB/ROTJ helmets come from? And can you tell me what the difference is between those castings in any great detail?

Quote:
Gino said:
Not all the masks had remnants of the mounting tabs remaining. You have to grind away a portion of the tabs to fit the flange on correctly. Sometimes the production team left the remnants on, sometimes they were completely removed before adding the ring. Of the examples I've seen, it's about half one way and half the other.


Well which casting are you referring to? The Paul Allen? Describe to me what happened to the tabs on the Paul Allen. And what castings have you seen? Secret original castings that your friends own?

Quote:
Gino said:
Yes a new mold was made for ESB (see above). But the mount was not molded in for the ESB helmets. It was an off the shelf found part (flange) that was individually applied to each base casting.


Right, so what about ROTJ....according to your theory each ROTJ mask should have that base for the mounting ring added on and not part of the casting, right?




If Gino compared ESB and ROTJ helmets side by side in the archives as you did, then he wouldn't be making such general statements that even back then were clearly not the case at least if someone took the time to research it properly. So, many thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: SW Costumes: Six ESB Darth Vader helmets & 2-3 stunt hel
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:37 pm 
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Also it would follow that these statements by Gino were also incorrect:

http://www.therpf.com/f79/origins-rotj-vader-helmets-jy-thread-continuation-65622/index19.html

Post 455

Quote:
No new helmet molds made for ROTJ (no ROTJ specific mold, period).
Could Brian's friend have actually made the casting during ROTJ, sure but there were/are a lot of these types of castings (and castings of castings) floating about during those times with people who worked on the production and had access to different molds. That does not make it an actual production casting, and it certainly does not make it ROTJ specific.
It's just incorrect information to say that there was anything specifically molded for the ROTJ production (in regards to vader) with the exception of the newly created chestbox. Which of course they still used the hero ESB chestbox on screen but it was refurbished along with everything else.


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 Post subject: Re: SW Costumes: Six ESB Darth Vader helmets & 2-3 stunt hel
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:18 pm 
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Thanks for the additional information, Brandon, regarding how the book was researched. :)

I'm wondering if you got a chance to view the helmet at Planet Hollywood, Florida? That helmet may be the one seen at the Reveal scene before they switch to the actual reveal helmet. And we've been trying to confirm that and more.

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: SW Costumes: Six ESB Darth Vader helmets & 2-3 stunt hel
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:40 am 
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I wonder if the leather jacket Brandon is holding up might be from Bob Anderson's stunt costume?

The best looks I've found of the leather undersuit worn by Bob are from promo shots, particularly the first two if you google "Bob Anderson Mark Hamill".

The collar looks like a match, but it's hard to see whether the stitching matches.

But it would make sense for Bob's costume to have a looser fit and less dense stitching given the range of motion required to perform his fantastic, sweeping lightsaber swings.


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 Post subject: Re: SW Costumes: Six ESB Darth Vader helmets & 2-3 stunt hel
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:12 am 
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Wow! NO idea that we had the author here chiming in. Great book, Brandon.

If you do come back out here to read this, I have two questions.

1. How many Original Trilogy Tusken Raider masks did you run across?

2. Here is a picture of two Darth Vader helmets I took in the LFL archives dept. in 1990. Note that the helmet on the left has the small chin triangle. Did you see this one by chance? I was told at the time that it might have been a promo/ tour helmet of some kind. ???

And thanks for chiming in here! :)

Attachment:
darthshelf1.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: SW Costumes: Six ESB Darth Vader helmets & 2-3 stunt hel
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:41 am 
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DJ, thanks for sharing that pic! What is the helmet on the right? ROTJ?

darthjones wrote:
Wow! NO idea that we had the author here chiming in. Great book, Brandon.

If you do come back out here to read this, I have two questions.

1. How many Original Trilogy Tusken Raider masks did you run across?

2. Here is a picture of two Darth Vader helmets I took in the LFL archives dept. in 1990. Note that the helmet on the left has the small chin triangle. Did you see this one by chance? I was told at the time that it might have been a promo/ tour helmet of some kind. ???

And thanks for chiming in here! :)

Attachment:
darthshelf1.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: SW Costumes: Six ESB Darth Vader helmets & 2-3 stunt hel
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:42 am 
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DJ, thanks for sharing that pic! What is the helmet on the right? ROTJ?

darthjones wrote:
Wow! NO idea that we had the author here chiming in. Great book, Brandon.

If you do come back out here to read this, I have two questions.

1. How many Original Trilogy Tusken Raider masks did you run across?

2. Here is a picture of two Darth Vader helmets I took in the LFL archives dept. in 1990. Note that the helmet on the left has the small chin triangle. Did you see this one by chance? I was told at the time that it might have been a promo/ tour helmet of some kind. ???

And thanks for chiming in here! :)

Attachment:
darthshelf1.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: SW Costumes: Six ESB Darth Vader helmets & 2-3 stunt hel
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:06 pm 
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I was told that the helmet to the right was a ROTJ hero for sure. Don Bies was there and looked inside to confirm that. I don't know what he saw but it sure looked great.

I was just trippin out here that Brandon said no ANH era Vader masks - which means that mask/ helmet must have disappeared at some point or is on display some place Planet Hollywood or other. ???

Speaking of which, has any of you seen the costume exhibit in Los Angeles where they have a Vader?


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 Post subject: Re: SW Costumes: Six ESB Darth Vader helmets & 2-3 stunt hel
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:31 pm 
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wow catching up on this thread... too cool info Brandon! Please post more.

And DJ, that pic! I wish I could go there... and back in time


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 Post subject: Re: SW Costumes: Six ESB Darth Vader helmets & 2-3 stunt hel
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:41 am 
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Here's the other pic, just slightly different lighting.

Attachment:
darthshelf2.jpg


And oh! Can any of you identify the helmet on the right without a face? If I told you before don't make a guess. But let's see if anyone gets it right away.


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 Post subject: Re: SW Costumes: Six ESB Darth Vader helmets & 2-3 stunt hel
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:48 pm 
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The dome on the left does look also Anh to me. :wtf


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 Post subject: Re: SW Costumes: Six ESB Darth Vader helmets & 2-3 stunt hel
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:23 pm 
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darthjones wrote:
I was just trippin out here that Brandon said no ANH era Vader masks - which means that mask/ helmet must have disappeared at some point or is on display some place Planet Hollywood or other. ???


That, of course, is the $64,000 question. The reigning theory is that the ANH Helmet (or helmets -- there are multiple opinions on how many there were) was re-purposed for Empire and that it ended up being modified with the larger chin vent, no widow's peak, etc.

I have often wondered if the "Movie Poster Helmet" isn't in fact the long lost ANH Hero helmet having been kicked around a bit and repainted umpteen times. Or maybe Gary Kurtz has it squirreled away (despite denials). They did take it on tour to Japan -- at least you can see it in that Video that got posted about the time they were promoting Empire and he would certainly have had dibs on it I can imagine.

I certainly hope that it does still exist and that someday will be returned to the Archives.


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 Post subject: Re: SW Costumes: Six ESB Darth Vader helmets & 2-3 stunt hel
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:17 pm 
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dcarty wrote:
darthjones wrote:
I was just trippin out here that Brandon said no ANH era Vader masks - which means that mask/ helmet must have disappeared at some point or is on display some place Planet Hollywood or other. ???


That, of course, is the $64,000 question. The reigning theory is that the ANH Helmet (or helmets -- there are multiple opinions on how many there were) was re-purposed for Empire and that it ended up being modified with the larger chin vent, no widow's peak, etc.

I have often wondered if the "Movie Poster Helmet" isn't in fact the long lost ANH Hero helmet having been kicked around a bit and repainted umpteen times. Or maybe Gary Kurtz has it squirreled away (despite denials). They did take it on tour to Japan -- at least you can see it in that Video that got posted about the time they were promoting Empire and he would certainly have had dibs on it I can imagine.

I certainly hope that it does still exist and that someday will be returned to the Archives.

DJ photographed that helmet in the nineties. :wink:
Thanks for posting those pictures, btw, Darth Jones. They are really cool. Do you have them in larger format or is this the largest you are able to share them at?

Also, the Movie Poster helmet isn't the screen used ANH. The poster helmet is without a doubt a cast from the Rick Baker mold and has a similar pulled in right side of the neck like the DJ helmet from that same mold. Since the Poster helmet is most likely a helmet currently residing in fan possession in Australia, it's easy to confirm all this.

I doubt very much that the helmet seen in the Japanese video is the screen used ANH.


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 Post subject: Re: SW Costumes: Six ESB Darth Vader helmets & 2-3 stunt hel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:39 am 
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I'll take a guess at the helmet on the right. Looking at the divots along its right side (wearer's right), it looks like this ESB stunt: http://www.starwarshelmets.com/2224_0039.jpg


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