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 Post subject: Re: ROTJ Vader Helmets, as told by D.O.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:34 pm 
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Do you think helmet #6 was used because it was an empire helmet modified to fit Sabastian Shaw not Prowse for the shot on the shuttle ramp?


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 Post subject: Re: ROTJ Vader Helmets, as told by D.O.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:33 pm 
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Insane amount of info to digest. But cool!

I'm going to look at those photos as large as possible now to study up. ^_^


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 Post subject: Re: ROTJ Vader Helmets, as told by D.O.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:56 am 
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Sith-Smith wrote:
Do you think helmet #6 was used because it was an empire helmet modified to fit Sabastian Shaw not Prowse for the shot on the shuttle ramp?


Actually, I think they used that helmet because it looked more like the reveal helmet, which didn't really look like any of the rest of the ROTJ helmets. Not only is the
reveal painted like an ESB but it has a chin grille that looks like an ESB. And if you watch the scene, you have a pretty long shot of the underside of the helmet and
that ESB chin grille before Luke actually pulls him up to talk to him. And then as soon as Anakin breathes last breath Luke lays him back down and you get a pretty
long shot of the underside of that reveal neck with it ESB chin grille. They probably noticed the obvious difference in the grills and decided to use an ESB instead.
I wouldn't be surprised if they actually shot that scene once with an ROTJ first and then decided it wouldn't work.

I am very curious if they didn't build the reveal mask before any of the others, because it looks so much like an ESB. Since it's such a complicated mask, it has occurred
to me they might have wanted to get an early start on making it. And hence it got based more on an ESB. But that's just a theory.

The helmet on the right is ROTJ No.2
ImageImage

scottjua wrote:
Insane amount of info to digest. But cool!

I'm going to look at those photos as large as possible now to study up. ^_^


Thanks, I hope it helps. Hopefully you can make the pics bigger. I don't know why but the forum keeps downsizing all my pictures, or Photobucket is I'm not sure which.


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 Post subject: Re: ROTJ Vader Helmets, as told by D.O.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:30 am 
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The helmet seen briefly at the reveal scene when Luke is pulling Vader up, always jumped out at me as being different - even in the beginning when I hadn't begun learning the differences between the helmets. It always stood out. Why they used that one is unknown, but it certainly wasn't a regular RotJ. And it does not resemble the RotJ reveal in any way. The RotJ reveal is painted much differently, so why it was used - main shoot, re-shoot, whatever - it is not because it resembles the reveal. And seeing how they used the stunt helmet in extreme close-ups during the scene where Vader threw Palpatine down the shaft, it is clear they didn't give two hoots about the helmets looking similar. It is clear they reasoned that no one would notice. So why this helmet was chosen is strange, because it is not seen anywhere else in the movie.


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 Post subject: Re: ROTJ Vader Helmets, as told by D.O.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:46 am 
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Could it be possible that the ROTJ reveal faceplate was originally built for ESB?


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 Post subject: Re: ROTJ Vader Helmets, as told by D.O.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:19 pm 
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Well, they certainly made a reveal in ESB, so chances are they could have been experimenting and made two. Heck, even the RotJ stunt helmets are rumored to maybe having been made during ESB, if I remember correctly - or maybe I'm just remembering wrong on that one. The bottom part of the RotJ reveal could even BE the ESB reveal refurbished, where they cut off the upper tusk tube, as I haven't heard any rumbling on the ESB reveal ever being found. It certainly looks like the same neck brace.

However, the upper part of the face mask is clearly not the ESB reveal as it has the upper tusk tube as being part of the cast, where the ESB was trimmed above both tubes.


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 Post subject: Re: ROTJ Vader Helmets, as told by D.O.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:15 pm 
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No Humor Man wrote:
The helmet seen briefly at the reveal scene when Luke is pulling Vader up, always jumped out at me as being different - even in the beginning when I hadn't begun learning the differences between the helmets. It always stood out. Why they used that one is unknown, but it certainly wasn't a regular RotJ. And it does not resemble the RotJ reveal in any way. The RotJ reveal is painted much differently, so why it was used - main shoot, re-shoot, whatever - it is not because it resembles the reveal. And seeing how they used the stunt helmet in extreme close-ups during the scene where Vader threw Palpatine down the shaft, it is clear they didn't give two hoots about the helmets looking similar. It is clear they reasoned that no one would notice. So why this helmet was chosen is strange, because it is not seen anywhere else in the movie.


How can you say these two facemasks don't look anything alike? Except for the black/gray line on the top of the nose, they are painted nearly identical. They certainly look a lot more like each other than the reveal looks like other ROTJ facemasks. The only thing between the reveal and an ESB is the tusks. Swap those out and it would literally be an ESB. Why would they not have just grabbed an ROTJ helmet and used it to play the scene?

How can you also say categorically that it was not because of the resemblance? Despite what they did with the stunt helmet as they were obviously in love with it, moment to moment continuity is still important. And the simple fact was that the two grills were going be seen only a couple minutes apart in the same scene where his head and neck grille were going to be at the focal point of the shot. And they did maintain continuity within the scenes. Which is probably why they did use the stunt helmet for all those different shots, because they're all within the same scene.



ImageImageImage
ESB used in scene..................................................................................................................reveal mask....................................................................................................... actual ROTJ mask



ImageImage
ESB used in scene..............................................................................................reveal mask


ImageImage
reveal mask...................................................................................actual ROTJ


Actually, I think one of the biggest problems is that there just isn't any recent HD pictures of the ESB helmets where the helmet hasn't been severely damaged, or is missing parts or hasn't been modified to look more like an ROTJ,
or just plain converted into one of the ROTJ helmets. Sadly this ESB helmet we're talking about looks like somebody fished it out of a junk pile.


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 Post subject: Re: ROTJ Vader Helmets, as told by D.O.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:02 am 
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vadermania wrote:
Could it be possible that the ROTJ reveal faceplate was originally built for ESB?


When you look at it detail-wise it certainly seems possible. But if they had used it, they would've had to come up with a more elaborate system for the 'in scene' assembly, As it would be a three-piece affair, as opposed to the two-piece affair that was used in the film (there is no use in having all that cranial detail, if you're not going see it). To note: the helmet they did match it with was the primary helmet used in all the Stardestroyer bridge scenes in ESB. So if they had used it in ESB it still would have been matched up with this particular helmet. Which is definitely an interesting thought.

I've also always thought that the reveal helmet they used in ESB looked a little rushed and somewhat crude, after all, they didn't even paint the nose. This scene was filmed later in the production, so perhaps they originally planned to use the ROTJ reveal, but decided the scene wasn't working and made another helmet for a redesigned scene. Of course, that's pure speculation.

No Humor Man wrote:
Well, they certainly made a reveal in ESB, so chances are they could have been experimenting and made two. Heck, even the RotJ stunt helmets are rumored to maybe having been made during ESB, if I remember correctly - or maybe I'm just remembering wrong on that one. The bottom part of the RotJ reveal could even BE the ESB reveal refurbished, where they cut off the upper tusk tube, as I haven't heard any rumbling on the ESB reveal ever being found. It certainly looks like the same neck brace.

However, the upper part of the face mask is clearly not the ESB reveal as it has the upper tusk tube as being part of the cast, where the ESB was trimmed above both tubes.


Somebody did say that, I remember reading it. I would have to say absolutely not. Besides the fact that it is very ROTJ in detail, it's also like an improved version of the ESB stunt. But there is a much more solid reason why it could not have existed. If you look at the picture on the cover of the making of ESB (the jacket) with Vader fighting Luke, you can see that his left tusk is broken and missing. However, if you look at this image of Luke fighting Vader in the cave, the left tusk is broken there as well. That makes two scenes where this helmet with a broken tusk was used. If the other stunt helmet had been around they would've used it.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: ROTJ Vader Helmets, as told by D.O.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:45 pm 
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vadermania wrote:
Could it be possible that the ROTJ reveal faceplate was originally built for ESB?


Hey Tom, I don't believe so, although I suspect the neckbrace from the ESB Reveal may have been used again for the ROTJ prop. I'll have to check on this but I 'm sure I read that the Return of the Jedi reveal prop was made in a relative hurry as it was made relatively late in the day. I wouldn't be suprised if an ESB mask had gone under the knife to become the ROTJ Reveal though.


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 Post subject: Re: ROTJ Vader Helmets, as told by D.O.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:11 am 
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I was just looking at Rinzler's Star Wars The Blueprints book. The book showes a copy of a Jedi blueprint from January of 82 showing an urgent change to prop No. E81/ 4 "actual vader mask" which called for an aluminum hinge be installed into the lower lip section of the vader mask for the reveal shot.


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 Post subject: Re: ROTJ Vader Helmets, as told by D.O.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:12 am 
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Sith-Smith wrote:
I was just looking at Rinzler's Star Wars The Blueprints book. The book showes a copy of a Jedi blueprint from January of 82 showing an urgent change to prop No. E81/ 4 "actual vader mask" which called for an aluminum hinge be installed into the lower lip section of the vader mask for the reveal shot.


Do you have that book or did you see in in store? They obviously didn't do it, but the E81/4 reference is interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: ROTJ Vader Helmets, as told by D.O.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:06 am 
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I own the book. It shows the side profile blueprint copy describing the modification to the mask drawn by Fred Hole. There is a notation on the drawing thats says stage 6 urgent. I'm wondering if the modification was made to one of the masks and it gave the mask a thicker looking lower lip as shown in the photo line up of this thread. And I too find the prop number detail interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: ROTJ Vader Helmets, as told by D.O.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:35 pm 
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Do you have that book or did you see in in store? They obviously didn't do it, but the E81/4 reference is interesting.[/quote]

I need to correct myself here. After looking at other blueprints in the Rinzler book its clear the E81/4 reference was not an identifying number for the vader mask prop hinge as this same number was used on other jedi blue prints completely unrelated to this prop. (Palm to face) I guess its time to get my vision prescription re-checked. :banger

-Dwayne


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 Post subject: Re: ROTJ Vader Helmets, as told by D.O.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:42 pm 
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Oops. I don't own the book. I have to drive across town to see it.


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 Post subject: Re: ROTJ Vader Helmets, as told by D.O.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:45 am 
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For the record, there were at least two different stunt helmets (bottom three pictures) made for ROTJ. One is in the archives (right), the other owned by a private collector (2 left).




Image

This helmet has not done any time on the exhibit circuit that I've seen. Far as I know, it is still in the Lucasfilm archives. It is interesting that the picture on the far bottom
right, which had to be taken sometime after production, years from the looks of it, still shows the helmet as having tubes that are intact. While in the two smaller images
the tubes of been clearly broken off. It just goes to show you how little respect these original helmets get. And as I've said before, they are simply tools and not showpieces
sitting on someone's shelf.[/quote]


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