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 Post subject: Re: Don Post Deluxe - Early Numbers Better Shape... or Not?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:04 pm 
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The issue of "jaw droop" has been used to malign the Don Post Deluxe as "warped" and to lend credence to the deterioration of the one mold, according to the one mold myth.

As with any fiberglass castings, you're going to see fluctuations to shape depending on how the resin of the FG cures. For example, if pulled before it has fully cured and if left on a table, the weight of the mask will cause the neck to sag and spread. However, I do believe that the Don Post Studios master had a flared neck. How much flare in addition to the inherited flare is the question.

We simply need to study the ANH Vader and to see that jawdroop actually existed on the original.

Image

First, Vader is not symmetrical - not its face and not its neck. The shape of the neck will determine what angle of rotation the mask sits. If the right (as you look at it) is flared out, it will cause the mask to lean a little to the right, thereby accentuating the asymmetry of the mouth.

Here is a second comp between a prop shot of the screenused ANH and a screen capture of the same mask.

Image

Again, the "jaw droop" was there on the original.

I tell people I can correct jaw droop in two seconds. When they don't believe me, I take the mask and rotate it a little to the left. They laugh and they claim the right side of the mouth sticks out more than the left. Ah, but that's how it was sculpted.

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 Post subject: Re: Don Post Deluxe - Early Numbers Better Shape... or Not?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:16 pm 
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cookman wrote:
Mac,
I not so long ago purchased #17 from yakam and also I have #189.
When I received # 17, I was very surprised at the amount of neck flare compared to #189 which is 25mm narrower.
Also the amount of neck flare comparing #189 and #188 appears to be drastically different (going by your photos).
There are other notable differences between #17 and #189. The build quality of #17 is better. Heavier cast especially the dome. It’s easy to see why they couldn’t keep that up for 1000 copies. Gunmetal paint is slightly different on each.
To the best of my ability I have not identified any modifications to either that may have happened after construction.
Going by the differences in neck flare between #188 and #189 I believe that they could not have only had one mold. In the lower numbers maybe they used 2 molds which would make roughly every second number different. And who really knows if the allocated numbers were actually the sequence in which they were built????
Great topic Mac, this has been bothering me for a while.
Mike

"Random Original State DP DLX" also looks to be #17. If not then very close to it. Same thick chin vent, mesh in vents glued in the wrong way, same neck flare, inside of dome cleaned up.


Cookman,

Thanks so much for sharing. Ah, so it's you that has the number right next to mine!

That is an eye-opener, to see that your #17 is more flared at the neck than #189. Do share pics (6 feet, looking into the camera - try to match my DP DLX #188 shot so I can do overlay comparisons, if needed).

As I compare the inside of the mounting system between my #188 and the "Rescued" mask, they are slightly different. I agree with you that certain things are difficult to sustain for all 1,000. I do believe these to be made by hand so the amount of fiberglass might differ from one pull to the other, but the type of FG, type of paint, grills, etc. would be similar if not the same.

In terms of the neck, as I made mention in my preceding post, if a mask is pulled a little too early before the resin had a chance to cure, the weight might bear down on the neck and cause it to sag and spread outward.

And with respect to your question as to whether or not the numbers are accurate to the order in which they were built, as dcarty had pointed out, his mask had one number and the dome had the next number in sequence. I suspect that the shop was not large enough (nor was there sufficient manpower) to do all 1,000 in one go. They had to have done it in batches based on available manpower. So I'd venture to say the numbering is only approximate to the batch the helmet belonged to. Let's say they did 25 helmets in a go. Your #25 could have been in actuality #7; #3 could have been actually #24. But I don't think it's likely that #1,000 was actually #12.

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 Post subject: Re: Don Post Deluxe - Early Numbers Better Shape... or Not?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:23 pm 
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Great thread Mac! :thumbsup

Just like a family reunion. Keep 'em coming guys. :cool:

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 Post subject: Re: Don Post Deluxe - Early Numbers Better Shape... or Not?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:46 pm 
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Hmm... whenever I talked about the jaw-droop in the past I was referring to the fact that the lower mouth front was curved rather than straight across, more like it was melting. Yes, the mouth triangle is asymmetrical on the original, but for the most part the lines are straight, or at least much straighter than some DP DLX's I've seen.

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 Post subject: Re: Don Post Deluxe - Early Numbers Better Shape... or Not?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:13 pm 
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Ah, I didn't realize I had this documented a while back.

Image

The "Rescued" (number unknown) mask is on the left, and the #188 is on the right.

The paint type, the FG and resin type, and the mesh type are identical. However, for some reason, the inside mounting system on the Rescued does not appear fully painted. What you're seeing might be some primer with bits of overspray of the metallic dark gray. The foam padding is an enigma to me. It's old, but I'm not sure if it's original. There is cloth spray-glued to the foam. It's actually a very nice touch.

Notice from this perspective that even though both necks are flared, there are slight variances with shape.

Image

Image

The Rescued (left) leans a bit more to the right.

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 Post subject: Re: Don Post Deluxe - Early Numbers Better Shape... or Not?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:20 pm 
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NoHumorMan wrote:
Hmm... whenever I talked about the jaw-droop in the past I was referring to the fact that the lower mouth front was curved rather than straight across, more like it was melting. Yes, the mouth triangle is asymmetrical on the original, but for the most part the lines are straight, or at least much straighter than some DP DLX's I've seen.



There is possibility that the bottom lip was an intended modification of the master so that those in the know and who have an eye for this kind of thing can tell the DP DLX from a screen-cast original. I don't think this was the result of a deformity of the mold. Given that in mass production it is more plausible to have much more than one mold, for all Don Post Deluxes we've seen so far, they all have this trait, meaning this trait exists in all production molds - including the neck.

They may have sanded the bottom lip in that area causing the line to appear to bend upwards.

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 Post subject: Re: Don Post Deluxe - Early Numbers Better Shape... or Not?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:23 pm 
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Wow--Interesting to see the two side by side each with its own wonkiness!

Here's #179 (or #197, or #791, POE, OPE...) before I got my mitts on it:

Image

I think it illustrates pretty well what I think of when people talk about the chin droop (like Carsten notates). If you follow the line along the bottom lip, reflected from the camera flash, it wavers like someone stuck their thumb there and pushed it in slightly. Because the line of the bottom lip isn't straight, like on the real helmet, it emphasizes the asymmetry and makes it look worse than it is.

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Don Post Deluxe - Early Numbers Better Shape... or Not?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:38 pm 
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Dave,

I actually liked that feature the most.

BTW, when you removed the paint on yours, was the bottom lip of even thickness, or did it thin out at the apex of the curve? If the latter, it may suggest sanding. If not, then someone perhaps used force on the Master or whatever it was that produced the master.

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 Post subject: Re: Don Post Deluxe - Early Numbers Better Shape... or Not?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:54 pm 
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Here is a comparison between a ROTJ promo photo's mask and the Don Post Deluxe:

Image

I'm actually surprised at the overlay. I even got the tubes to line up. I'm not, however, saying it's 100% accurate. My DP was taken about 6 feet away. The promo poster's probably about 5 feet (hard to say, sometimes).

For verification, the red overlay area is set to 60%.

Image

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Don Post Deluxe - Early Numbers Better Shape... or Not?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:55 am 
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This may debunk a few theories

Left is #17 right is #189

ImageImage
Again #17 on the left
ImageImage
Facial measurements are very similar, cheek to cheek and tusk distance. The only major difference is the nosebridge is much wider on #17 oh and of course the necks


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 Post subject: Re: Don Post Deluxe - Early Numbers Better Shape... or Not?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:18 am 
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Hi, My name is Sid and i have a DPD #151. Actually i had 2 DPD but i sold one some years back.
I held on to this DP because of the extremely nice condition and very little warping that
most other DPD helmets suffer from.. I am sorry for the poor quality of this picture i will try
to take more this week. I will also show pictures of the other DPD helmet i once owned so you
can see the differences..

If memory serves me i ordered my first DP from an add in Galaxy Trader. Some months later
I received it and was a bit disappointed with the warping so I contacted Don Post and after
overcoming some obstacles finally got a chance to talk to someone there about these problems..

I had a list of questions to ask them, just like a good Star Wars Nerd would :) and here is
what they told me....

I had asked them why my helmet was warped and sagging and they told me they were
receiving a lot of the same questions from other concerned owners and thought that the master
helmet had the same issues but under further examination of the many molds they made for
the production, found that a few of the molds were faulty leaving many of the production
helmets with a low, to moderate, to extreme warping problem.. I asked if they could tell me
if they knew what #rd helmets were affected and they told me it varied throughout the
production line, some good and some bad. Basically a flip of the coin....

I have heard people in the past say the earlier DPD helmets had less warping but as all of you
can see from the pictures in this thread, that is not the case at all. I also asked if the helmets
had any other changes throughout the production and they told me the only thing they felt it
necessary to change was the Lenses because of the poor visibility they were experiencing
with the initial batches.... I for one can verify that my earlier #151 had Crap lenses compare
to the near perfect lenses in my higher numbered DPD i sold....

Here is my current DPD.. I will upload another picture with more detail, but you can see
already how the neck has very little if not any flare at all, I also noticed that my earlier
DP has more surface detail unlike my higher #rd DP almost as if they were cleaned up more
as the production went on.....
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Don Post Deluxe - Early Numbers Better Shape... or Not?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:54 am 
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Welcome Sid! Thanks for sharing the info :cool: That's one nice looking DPD.


CSMacLaren wrote:
Dave,

I actually liked that feature the most.

BTW, when you removed the paint on yours, was the bottom lip of even thickness, or did it thin out at the apex of the curve? If the latter, it may suggest sanding. If not, then someone perhaps used force on the Master or whatever it was that produced the master.


Here's what the DPD looked like once the paint was (mostly) stripped. From what I recall it seemed like the width of the lip was consistent--just warped all to hell. Unfortunately these are the kinds of pictures you get when you combine a cheap camera with an impossibly bad photographer:

Image

Here's some of the repair work:

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Don Post Deluxe - Early Numbers Better Shape... or Not?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:09 pm 
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Thank you Dcarty....
You look like your on your way to having a nice helmet too..

I wanted to add a couple more things.... I asked so many questions i was a bit surprised
that the person on the other end of the phone was so pleased to lend damning information
to me lol :D

I asked about the sensors and why the the ones on the helmet looked like blobs of poop,
and i was told to maintain the authenticity of the original certain things were changed that
would (in their minds) not greatly affect how the finished DPD would look.. So curious about
this, i then asked if the structure of the helmet itself was changed and was told no, the
helmet was in it's original condition before molding and the only thing they changed was the
original sensors prior to molding but they did also add that there might be subtle changes
or differences depending on who was working on them in the finishing department. Some of
these helmets did need bodywork because of air pockets or pinholes but for the most part it
sounds as if the helmet itself should be true to the original..

Oh yes. This next question was very important to me. I asked about the paint job, primarily
the colors they used.. The person (sorry don't remember their name :() told me he wasn't
100% but was pretty sure that the color on the DPD was matched to be the same color as the
original. The only thing that was planned for the paint was the reversed paint scheme......


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 Post subject: Re: Don Post Deluxe - Early Numbers Better Shape... or Not?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:15 pm 
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cookman wrote:
This may debunk a few theories
Left is #17 right is #189
ImageImage

WOW... THAT's some major differences! :eek


And welcome Sid and thanks for sharing that story about DPD. That's a lovely shaped faceplate you have there! :thumbsup

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 Post subject: Re: Don Post Deluxe - Early Numbers Better Shape... or Not?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:28 pm 
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Oh yes I almost forgot... I wanted to clarify what CSMaclaren was talking about
concerning the "Droop".... As you can see from this screen cap the droop is obvious.
It almost appears as if they reversed the paint on one of the helmets for this scene, but in
fact while they were doing the final editing they realized that Vader looked like he was looking
in the wrong direction while talking to the emperor so they reversed the imaging to
compensate for that filming mistake....... I like this image, because it allows you to see how
screwed up the real helmet was.... :D


Notice the droop and the neck flare? Yup, the DPD is a nice helmet if you were fortunate
enought to get a good one..
Image


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