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 Post subject: Re: The TD Cast Controversy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:47 pm 
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SithLord wrote:
voice in the crowd wrote:
I know Thomas was very demanding on information and images of the master but that was his prerogative and quite understandable as it is clear his interests are in studying Vader so any information would be appreciated by any Vader fan.


Ask your friend. Did I get photos of the master? No. Only the ones that were shown to everyone at that time. I wasn't demanding. And I was representing the interests of the people that were investing in this. I ask. I don't demand. I don't even know the guy who owns the VP master and he's the one who molded it.


Hi Thomas,

Sorry that came over badly and wasn't mean to read like that. Demanding wasn't a great choice of words. What I meant was you were thorough on any information you could attain and quite rightly so when investigating a new prop for yourself and others. Having to do everything through a middle man made the process quite gruelling at times like asking questions then waiting ages for replies etc

I agree 100% people lost interest and possibly rightly so. You paid for your faceplate and had to wait quite a bit and believe it or not I had paid for my three but because I knew the middle man probably had a less stressful time than you.

Cheers Chris


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 Post subject: Re: The TD Cast Controversy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:27 pm 
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In general...We expect the thread to be controversal as the title indicates but lets keep it on the civil side fellas as best we can.

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 Post subject: Re: The TD Cast Controversy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:51 pm 
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CSMacLaren wrote:
The way I read your accusation, you implied he was rejected for having one of your castings because he'd incorporate it into his products - in other words, implying he was going to become a recaster. Saying he was untrustworthy maligns his reputation but implying he is a recaster does so much more damage.

So you're saying there's nothing personal and no bad blood? The nature of the accusations are anything but. They're consistent with animosity towards someone exposing them for lying.



Did I give a reason? No. Then why are you reading into it like that? Probably because you have nothing better to do than to read into things for the sake of making matters worse.

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 Post subject: Re: The TD Cast Controversy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:00 pm 
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Qui-Gonzalez wrote:
Oh dear lord, really Thomas? Step down from the cross. If you are correct on something, I will back you up. That applies to anyone I "associate" with online. Now we are reading how you defend the hobby, how you are looking out for everyone else and their best interests. Did someone say "Hey Thomas, come to defend us from the bad moldmaker!"? Perhaps it is your sense of seeming entitlement in regards to things.


No you didn't ask for a defense, but I am entitled to my opinion and to compare things as I see them.

Quote:
Your comps were spot on wrong for the AA case, yet you cling to those as righteous. You were wrong about the TD tubes being anything other than cut short by someone when the mold was made.


All I was trying to do was to determine at what stage were the tubes cut and why. So? What is YOUR problem with that?

Quote:
If I am reading between the lines correctly, it reads like you DID make life hard for the owner of the original VP.


Strange, I don't even know the owner, nor have I ever interacted with him, so how could I make things hard on him?

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Funny you talk about accuracy, but your willingness to discuss accuracy only extends as far as your purchases go.


No, I talk about other castings but people shoot me down for that.

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Have you ever said anything other than the pieces you own are accurate?


Maybe you should recall the time I pointed out the differences in the GH from the original. And maybe you should recall the thing I pointed out about the TD that were different from the original. Maybe you should read more.

Quote:
Hell, you were trying to cram paint chips and drips that do not match down all of our throats.


They match. Live with it. Until you have these castings in hand to compare you can't really say anything can you. I tried to show what I have observed to the best of my ability and if people can't see it then time will tell.

Quote:
I have yet to see you do anything that is outside of your interest. I wish you could prove me wrong, but again, you will take offense to my comments and think I am out to get you, or some such.


You are entitled to your opinion, but I wonder what you have against me. I'm a collector, same as you. I like accuracy, same as you. And I will give my opinion, same as you will.

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Again, were you ever correct, I would be more than willing to come to your defense, but you and your ego just keep on writing checks your photos cannot cash.


Fine, then when I show comparisons, I look forward to your feedback on them and I hope you will always provide your unbiased viewpoint. That's the point of me showing them.

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 Post subject: Re: The TD Cast Controversy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:06 pm 
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CSMacLaren wrote:
I hate to point this out, but in your TD thread, when I brought up that in the past when we discussed your photocomps that I had to correct over a dozen of your own comps to show you how you made your mask look bigger, etc. you practically assailed me and demanded and dared me to show you the comps once again. They're your own comps, BTW, with my line drawings to show your size comparisons were flawed for over a dozen comparisons. But that was not the first time I've had to re-analyze your own photos to show you that your factual statements were incorrect. You made your own TD mask look bigger than the screen-used! Well, in reality, we've now seen side-by-side photos of the TM, TD, etc. and the truth is that the TD was never so much larger than everyone else's helmet. So the size issue: posted as fact by you but disproven by your own photos later.

Thomas, I have to agree with Gonz on this one. Each time you take posts and I show you - either in your own comps - or perspective distortion differences between 4 feet and 6 feet+, you've always countered aggressively even though the pictures spoke for themselves. You're acting like someone whose opinions have eclipsed observable logic, stating conjecture as fact and truth.

Did you admit you were wrong? Did you apologize? I was assailed without basis - except for the fact that I contradicted you.



Mac, at the end of all that I showed a comparison from the right distance. And I conceded. Remember? But I find it amusing that one time you showed the difference was on account of 10ft vs 6ft you gloat about it every opportunity you can get. When was the other time? And I always said the TD was larger than the SPFX, JB, etc. and stated clearly it was on par with the TM/DJ. But I guess you missed that, didn't you.

If you contradict me, fine. If you prove your point, fine. But if you make personal comments or be snide about it, I will react accordingly. But I won't make personal comments against you, even if I disagree. I won't judge you just because I think you are incorrect about something. There's a difference.

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 Post subject: Re: The TD Cast Controversy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:11 pm 
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Vadermonkey wrote:
You are demanding an apology from DK while you slander me for no reason? If you look like a liar it is because YOU LIED!! Its almost too simple to understand really.... :banger

I am not bound by any agreement to you to keep something secret that is not a secret....did I ever mention it before it was made public knowledge that casts exist? No.

You really ought to take that microscope of yours and see if you cant figure out why you are being such an ass, all that crap you said about me is 100% out of line and not deserved...and you are the only one here that owes anyone an apology. And I am not just talking about me, I'd say the whole Den and to the staff for your lies, trying to cover it up and wasting their time with all the drama you inflict.



I apologized to you. But I asked you to keep our dealings in confidence and you didn't. You blurted it out on a public forum. If I discuss a possible deal with someone in private, I expect it to stay that way, regardless of the context of this thread. That still makes you untrustworthy.

I inflict drama? Who the hell is coming after me about crap like this? Questioning whether I offered castings or not, saying I lie about everything. It's a waste of my time. I don't make personal comments about other people's integrity. I was mistaken about the timeline because you did bug me about doing a TD run afterward.

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 Post subject: Re: The TD Cast Controversy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:21 pm 
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Thomas, the paint drips and chips/cracks do not match. No matter how many lines you tried drawing on them, they did not match. Simple. I am not the only one who was able to see them not matching, yet you were the only one...the ONLY one...who claims they match. They do not match...live with it. As far as what I have against you, it is your utter refusal to admit you are wrong...ever. It always comes with some caveat or other, and frankly, it is childish.

As far as your comparisons go, I have posted in regards to them, and it was unbiased. I, and the rest of the posters, do not see what you are TRYING to represent in your images. You try to lead the viewer to see what you want them too, neglecting other aspects, like the crack near the tusk tube end on the TD/VP/TM. It was in a different location, went a different direction.

Thomas, sometimes you can be too close to something to see it clearly. Instead of drawing your little doodles in MSPaint, why not let the images speak for themselves? As far as the crux of what started this whole thing...you either apologize or don't. You do not come on anywhere and give some half hearted apology for one thing, yet not another. Again, very childish and immature.


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 Post subject: Re: The TD Cast Controversy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:26 pm 
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Quote:
If you contradict me, fine. If you prove your point, fine. But if you make personal comments or be snide about it, I will react accordingly. But I won't make personal comments against you, even if I disagree. I won't judge you just because I think you are incorrect about something. There's a difference.


I contradicted you, fine. But you didn't listen; you continued with your suppositions with a one-track mind.

I proved my point, fine. But still you didn't listen; you continued with your "facts" with a one-track purpose.

After a while, it just occurs to us that you're not listening despite the evidence and despite your erroneous comps and statements. If it takes dozens of posts or dozens of images to convince you, and if you get offended and cry "personal attack / snide / etc." then the only thing you have the right to be offended at is your own unwillingness and stubborn microscopic / myopic focus.

Add on top of that the fact that you've time and again put the burden of proof on others. I have seen too many threads where you've posted dozens of photos of weak suppositions and yet those same photos prove the opposite point, but it takes dozens and dozens more before you begin to look outside of your proverbial microscope.

This is an injustice to us. The burden of proof is on you the statement-maker and fact-stater.

SithLord wrote:
Mac, at the end of all that I showed a comparison from the right distance. And I conceded.


At the end of a lot of posts and an entire thread of photos demonstrating the distance relationships. How much effort did that require? I guess you missed that, didn't you - how much effort people you put people through because you'd rather put the burden on them to disprove your claims.

SithLord wrote:
And I always said the TD was larger than the SPFX, JB, etc. and stated clearly it was on par with the TM/DJ. But I guess you missed that, didn't you.


Always said? I guess you always said it in your photo comparisons too. I guess you missed that, and you'd the images to imply that the TD was superior in size. That would have helped you in the big marketing thread on the TD, how you supposed the TD could have fathered the ESBs, or even the TMs. Now that the truth is out and copies were made, I wonder how much effort and burden have been put on us Den folks to disprove what were nothing more than false marketing claims to boost the perceived value of your TD and, subsequently, TD castings.

So this is personal? Not for me except for the fact that I hate to think that I was assailed by you for standing in the way of you boosting the value of the TD by posting erroneous comps that I had to constantly correct.

Very sad. Very, very sad.

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 Post subject: Re: The TD Cast Controversy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:32 pm 
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Qui-Gonzalez wrote:
Thomas, sometimes you can be too close to something to see it clearly. Instead of drawing your little doodles in MSPaint, why not let the images speak for themselves? As far as the crux of what started this whole thing...you either apologize or don't. You do not come on anywhere and give some half hearted apology for one thing, yet not another. Again, very childish and immature.



Gonz,

Do a search on the Den for "myopia" and you'll see how many times I've tried to address this with Thomas. In mentioning this now, I don't mean this as an attack on Thomas but rather to highlight how many times I've had to use the word to get his attention towards his stubbornness towards accepting viewpoints outside of his proverbial microscope. It wasn't after mentioning this many times consecutively did he finally say he likes to focus on one thing and work his way outward. Unfortunately people don't think that myopically. People often regard the helmet as a whole.

Also, making everyone focus on one scratch not lining up and claiming superiority over other masks while keeping people from knowing about the dozen or more scratches on the OTHER side of the neck.... that was just really unfortunate.

At that point, if a myopic examination of the TD leads the public to think the TD is the father of the ESBs / Father of the TM / etc. and a holistic examination of the TD leads to the exact opposite, then tell me what view puts the TD in a better light?

Ignoring dozens upon dozens of other evidence to focus on one drip, one crack?

The community is not so easily fooled any more.

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Last edited by CSMacLaren on Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The TD Cast Controversy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:40 pm 
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SithLord wrote:
I inflict drama? Who the hell is coming after me about crap like this? Questioning whether I offered castings or not, saying I lie about everything. It's a waste of my time. I don't make personal comments about other people's integrity. I was mistaken about the timeline because you did bug me about doing a TD run afterward.



You don't make personal comments about other people's integrity? Implying and insinuating that he's a recaster is quite enough. That goes beyond mistaking a timeline. You OMITED the date-time-stamp of the e-mail in your cut-and-paste, so that without the chronology of the e-mail communication, people could infer exactly how it looked.

Can't find the little B.S. icon Darth Karo used....

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 Post subject: Re: The TD Cast Controversy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:13 pm 
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Qui-Gonzalez wrote:
Thomas, sometimes you can be too close to something to see it clearly. Instead of drawing your little doodles in MSPaint, why not let the images speak for themselves? As far as the crux of what started this whole thing...you either apologize or don't. You do not come on anywhere and give some half hearted apology for one thing, yet not another. Again, very childish and immature.


Well sorry but you've not examined these castings firsthand and you are mistaken. And what exactly should I apologize to you for? Being in disagreement?

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 Post subject: Re: The TD Cast Controversy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:15 pm 
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CSMacLaren wrote:
You don't make personal comments about other people's integrity? Implying and insinuating that he's a recaster is quite enough. That goes beyond mistaking a timeline. You OMITED the date-time-stamp of the e-mail in your cut-and-paste, so that without the chronology of the e-mail communication, people could infer exactly how it looked.

Can't find the little B.S. icon Darth Karo used....



Mac, show me where I state or imply that Mike is a recaster.


And I stated that what he said later on about the SL was later on, didn't I. Maybe you should read that again.

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 Post subject: Re: The TD Cast Controversy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:19 pm 
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SithLord to Qui-Gonzalez wrote:
Well sorry but you've not examined these castings firsthand and you are mistaken. And what exactly should I apologize to you for? Being in disagreement?


He's mistaken?

We took umpteen pages to show you that your hairline crack wasn't the same identical inherited scratch in the casting of the TM.

If I hadn't mentioned how many "scratches" there were (read: actual physical cracks) on the other side of the mask (and how they weren't inherited but were cracks/flaws in the physical structure of the TD), how many pages would you have allowed to continue before you finally decided to "move outwards" to cover other aspects of the TD?

Further, having these castings firsthand yourself has absolutely not made your photo comparisons any more accurate, nor have they given validity to suppositions like "the TD fathered the ESB masks".

Your own photos speak for themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: The TD Cast Controversy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:29 pm 
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SithLord wrote:
Mac, show me where I state or imply that Mike is a recaster.

And I stated that what he said later on about the SL was later on, didn't I. Maybe you should read that again.


You know, I honestly don't care what you're trying to sell. That is immaterial. Thanks for the misdirection. My getting the SL/TD initials swapped does not mean that the real issue of you maligning Mike disappears.

You want the quote? If Mike's inquiry had said, "I would like to incorporate the VP into my Vader offerings" or "offer VP-based ESB stunt helmets." then I'd understand your reluctance. Your "no offense" rejection was based on the supposition that the VP would be combined with other castings he'd offer.

SithLord's email to Vadermonkey wrote:
Hi Mike,

Well I didn't really offer castings in that sense...there were only two or three...
No offense, but if I did ever offer the SL, I wouldn't sell it so that someone could combine it with other castings. As a collector I prefer to see it stand alone in someone's collection as it was meant to be.

regards,

Thomas


Read the read. Emphasis mine. Your own words.

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 Post subject: Re: The TD Cast Controversy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:37 pm 
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CSMacLaren wrote:
I proved my point, fine. But still you didn't listen; you continued with your "facts" with a one-track purpose.


No. I showed a new comparison from the right distance and it was resolved. But you seem to like to still gloat about it. It was a simple discussion about distance and perspective but you make it something more.

Quote:
After a while, it just occurs to us that you're not listening despite the evidence and despite your erroneous comps and statements. If it takes dozens of posts or dozens of images to convince you, and if you get offended and cry "personal attack / snide / etc." then the only thing you have the right to be offended at is your own unwillingness and stubborn microscopic / myopic focus.


ipso my previous statement.

Quote:
Add on top of that the fact that you've time and again put the burden of proof on others. I have seen too many threads where you've posted dozens of photos of weak suppositions and yet those same photos prove the opposite point, but it takes dozens and dozens more before you begin to look outside of your proverbial microscope.


Well if someone disagrees with me or accuses me of something as you have in the past, of course the burden of proof is on you. You keep referring back to that one instance about the 10ft vs 6ft comparison. And you say I am myopic?

Quote:
This is an injustice to us. The burden of proof is on you the statement-maker and fact-stater.


Well? We've discussed that before when you accused me before of stating things as fact and I pointed out what I stated and it was clear...whether it was the TD thread or whatever. And why do you bring this "us" into your sentence? Do you need everyone else to back you up in order to feel like you are right?

Quote:
At the end of a lot of posts and an entire thread of photos demonstrating the distance relationships. How much effort did that require? I guess you missed that, didn't you - how much effort people you put people through because you'd rather put the burden on them to disprove your claims.


Gee, sorry it was so much effort for you. What is the point then of discussing Vader castings? If you want to make a point clear, take some effort. If it's valid I will concede.

Quote:

Always said? I guess you always said it in your photo comparisons too. I guess you missed that, and you'd the images to imply that the TD was superior in size. That would have helped you in the big marketing thread on the TD, how you supposed the TD could have fathered the ESBs, or even the TMs. Now that the truth is out and copies were made, I wonder how much effort and burden have been put on us Den folks to disprove what were nothing more than false marketing claims to boost the perceived value of your TD and, subsequently, TD castings.


Umm like what images? Maybe you should be a little bit more specific before you accuse me of something else. And you call the TD thread a marketing thread? I wasn't selling any TD castings so why would you call it that? And what do you mean, the truth is out? As someone mentioned (maybe you didn't read it), it was no secret there were copies of the TD because I showed them in the TD discussion thread a long time ago. But, you like to misconstrue things as usual.

So? How many TD castings do people own? You are so smart why don't you give us your profound insights into the TD marketing machine. If you only knew how many there are and how ridiculous you sound. I've make it clear what I think about castings such as the TM (which I have praised as the best ESB there is, the TD which has unique features that are not on the screen mask, and the SL). If you don't want me to talk about my impressions of them then I won't.

Quote:

So this is personal? Not for me except for the fact that I hate to think that I was assailed by you for standing in the way of you boosting the value of the TD by posting erroneous comps that I had to constantly correct.

Very sad. Very, very sad.


It is personal. Because you continue to judge me. And for what reason?

Exactly what did you correct about the TD comparisons?

I have comparisons in detail of the DJ/TD/TM/SL/VP/MP and except for the MP they are at significant resolution. And four of those I've had or have in hand. So I've had a little bit of time to compare these things and make assessments on their similarities or differences. But with attitudes like yours I have no interest in showing them. I have yet to see you provide any insights into what is original or not in a casting. All you can talk about is something obvious like how far away to shoot a casting or how to reconstruct a damaged casting.

I could show details from the original screen helmet that you have never even seen before or considered. But why should I with such ingracious behavior. It's not me who drags down this forum, it's people like you.

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