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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:40 am 
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Here's a few crappy images.
Tomorrow I'll take as many daylight shots without a flash as I can.
I'll also take them from 6 feet away to avoid lens distortion...

The first photo shows (from left to right) the SPFX, Heavily modded DP Deluxe no.73, VP and a V1 ANH JB.

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Here's my DP w.i.p. next to the VP.

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Loads more tomorrow!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:40 am 
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I'm not sure... that would be up to Vadermania..

Sorry for all the cloak and dagger stuff, not being difficult for the sake of it..

Just to confirm..from my POV - When I was lucky enough to get a cast I said I would not discuss the TM's details and up close photos etc.. after info was shared and taken out of the priviledged section by an unknown member here..

If those rules were not broken than I for one would be happy to participate in this interesting topic.

It's a shame that because of that and what happened with Dan many issues have come up.

If I post in the priviledged section who is to say the same thing wont happen again.

The VP is a slightly different background in the sense that people are aware of it more and SL has shared many photos when he first got/had it.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:45 am 
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Note the difference in size between the VP and DP - isn't any is there?

I'm sure this'll piss off some folks but the SPFX has so many details of the VP it's amazing.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:56 am 
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Thanks again for the pics AJ. This will be an interesting thread. I'm sure you are going to get a ton of requests so I might as well get mine in early. :wink: Could you please do a side by side of the SPFX and the VP and also against the JB V1. Place the faceplates standing up side by side. I want to get a feeling of the size differences between the VP and the rest.
Thanks.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:00 am 
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AnsonJames wrote:

I'm sure this'll piss off some folks but the SPFX has so many details of the VP it's amazing.



Uhhhh...hello....like what? I've had both an SPFX and a VP and the SPFX has none of the fine details of a VP, let alone a TM.

The TM and VP are not from the same mold...apart from detail differences (from cleanup...although is that all from the owner?) the VP doesn't have a neck extension. But they share the same ultimate source. If you were to put the VP next to a TM you'd notice the size difference for certain.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:24 am 
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Anson,

With what version of the SPFX are you doing this comparison? I understand that some feel that SPFX has been constantly modifying his mask based on whatever new discovery or revelation that was not captured in previous iterations of his mask, so I'm curious at what stage of evolution your SPFX is, as I don't really follow SPFX's work.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:58 am 
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I also do not follow SPFX's work but I agree SPFX constantly modifies his helmets to make them seem more accurate. The SPFX looks the part from what I have seen in photos but it doesn't have the provinence and features of the VP or TM purely because of these modifications.

Can't wait for the daylight photos Anson as the details aren't showing up with flash. Hope you get a sunny day in Ireland :)

Cheers Chris.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:32 am 
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Actually the overall shape and size of the VP and the SPFX are almost exactly the same, there's also a few little nicks on the VP that can be seen on the SPFX.

The SPFX isn't undersized as I was told before and none of the other helmets I've compared it to are any different in size either.
My good friend Chris (Voice in the Crowd) had the chance to compare one of his VP's to six different Vader's on Thursday with the same conclusion.


At one point Gino said we should be less concerned with the size issue and concentrate on the details instead - I think he's correct.

I've been mould making and casting for twenty years now - you'll see variances in casts left right and center.
It depends on the amount of MEKP you've used to catalyse your resin, de-mould times , the temperature of your workspace, etc.

Shrinkage from original to cast is negligible to say the least - it's there alright but it's sooo tiny it's not worth mentioning.

I know you were given measurements of the TM but without them here I'm still thinking the VP and the TM from the same mould.

I'm charging my camera batteries now - lots of photos to come...


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:58 pm 
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Here's a few - still waiting for my batteries to charge...

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:34 pm 
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Beautiful mask :)


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:18 pm 
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Fatherless One wrote:
Beautiful mask :)


Yes it is. Thanks for the pics AJ. Keep them coming.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:19 pm 
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It's seriously overcast in Ireland today so I'm only able to take images with a flash.
I can't find a plate for my tripod so I'm hoping tomorrow the weather will be better.
Here's a few more.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:09 pm 
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Size may not be as important as details, but should not be ignored. It is common to expect some measurable differences between casts from the same mold, but those measurements are in the decimals, usually, hence, very tiny. Recasts or copies on the other hand, depending on the molding material used, may show significant measurable differences to the original to make the size issue important in this debate.

Size matters, as well as the history of the prop and details on it. None of it proves anything 100%, but can help clarify something about the prop in question and give an idea where it fits into the fan-prop history.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:22 pm 
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Quote:
Actually the overall shape and size of the VP and the SPFX are almost exactly the same, there's also a few little nicks on the VP that can be seen on the SPFX.

The SPFX isn't undersized


Hmm this is very strange I thought the VP would be nearer the size to the TM..and the SPFX is undersized in comparison with the latter thats why I was concerned by you posting comparisons at first.. Dont get me wrong I own 2 SPFX's and like them very much..

As for the VP details, it has had a fair share of clean up..

That said I would put this helmet in my top 4 of Vader helmets..

Thanks for sharing AJ, a great helmet.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:54 pm 
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AnsonJames wrote:
Actually the overall shape and size of the VP and the SPFX are almost exactly the same, there's also a few little nicks on the VP that can be seen on the SPFX.

The SPFX isn't undersized as I was told before and none of the other helmets I've compared it to are any different in size either.
My good friend Chris (Voice in the Crowd) had the chance to compare one of his VP's to six different Vader's on Thursday with the same conclusion.


At one point Gino said we should be less concerned with the size issue and concentrate on the details instead - I think he's correct.

I've been mould making and casting for twenty years now - you'll see variances in casts left right and center.
It depends on the amount of MEKP you've used to catalyse your resin, de-mould times , the temperature of your workspace, etc.

Shrinkage from original to cast is negligible to say the least - it's there alright but it's sooo tiny it's not worth mentioning.

I know you were given measurements of the TM but without them here I'm still thinking the VP and the TM from the same mould.
.


I don't see how you think the TM with its neck extension is from the same mold as the VP? That and the fact they have significant size difference and also the way the eye edges are shaped, the contour of the neck, the cleanup not to mention, the shape of the crown in relation to the face, etc etc.

They share the same source but the VP is from a ROTJ mold...not the same ESB mold as the TM. And the original ANH was never modified in the neck like that to mold it. So the TM is not directly from the ANH. It can't be because otherwise there would have to have been other modifications to it like the edges of the eyes which don't match the ANH by a long shot.

Gino is wrong. Size does matter. He just hasn't taken the time or effort to examine that relationship. And as for him saying we should not worry about size, that's only because he has no data on size and has no research to back up his statement and instead dismisses it without any reason or evidence to the contrary that it is NOT important. It IS and I have done the measurements. The VP is smaller than the TM. That is a fact. And the size difference cannot be accounted for by simple pull variation. It's not just the size either...it's the proportions in the face. But unless you study a lot of faceplates you won't notice something like that and Gino has NO idea about that level of scrutiny because he's never had a TM, he's never had a VP and he's never had DJ, nor anything else yet that I've seen in his possession to suggest he can make comments with any authority about size relationships between faceplates.

The fact is if you had as many measurements of different helmets that I have collected, you would realize that there is CONSISTENCY in the sizes. It doesn't matter how little the differences are in the sense that they are a few millimeters off on either side, the point is that there IS a consistent difference and a consistent relationship...as you get further down the lineage from ANH to ROTJ they get smaller. This is a quantifiable, reliable, and emperical relationship. Yes there is variation in size of pulls, but the fact is the similarity in size of related faceplates like the 20th C pulls is MUCH greater than similarity in size between different faceplates but faceplates of similar origin, ie: 20th C recast like the JB V2 and SPFX...are nearly identical in size.

I trust that's a VP but that SPFX is different than the one I had and the one I had was the FIRST ESB conversion Phil did...and it was just a direct conversion from one of his ANH pulls...this was before he ever started selling them on Ebay. Ok? He's modified his dome (a GH recast) and faceplate so much and remolded it himself so often to say that his faceplate now accurately reflects what the size should be is untenable. The SPFX I had in hand was what he started with and all I've seen over time is his efforts to make it more accurate. I've done many comparisons showing the history of changes he's made to his helmets on the RPF previously.

The fact is because the SPFX is a 20th C recast, it's smaller, and if it's bigger now then that just means Phil has been listening to my criticisms of his faceplate :wink: . I still have photos of that SPFX ESB helmet...

Ok, rant completed

:toothy


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