Out of respect to moderator darthvaderv's request, I decided to start a new thread on the difference between the ESB and ROTJ domes were worn in relation to the facemask.

The original thread in which this topic was disputed was...

http://thepropden.aokforums.com/vader-d ... t1329.html

... in which Gino attacked the topic as "incorrect information posted as fact" and "that the ESB dome setup is different than the ROTJ dome setup... is impossible because they are one in the same.

So that my observations and beliefs do not become misdefined or misrepresented by someone in order bolster their arguement, I'd like to re-iterate that I believe the dome of the ROTJ was worn slightly higher than the ESB setup whereupon you see more of the facemask's frown on the ROTJ than you do with the ESB setup.

Moreover, what you are about to see, think of this: no comps are 100% perfect. You just have to understand what you're seeing in three dimensions and each object (mask, dome, actor's head) are subject to three axis of rotation each. If Vader is looking downwards and you see as much if not MORE of his eyebrows than a comp shot of him looking upwards, then clearly there is a difference in the dome positioning that creates this phenomenon.

My arguement is that I observe that on ROTJ the frown of the facemask are more visible. By frown I mean the area where the eyebrows meet the bridge of the nose. The vertical space between the dome rim and the facemask's eyebrows are slightly greater than what you see on ESB. That is the focus of this thread and the following photo comp shots.

In the original thread, Gino placed the burden on me to prove the differences in dome positioning using sideshots, yet has exempted himself of proving otherwise. You all need to know that there are extremely few (if any) side profile screen shots of the ROTJ setup. In other words, GINO gave me a nearly impossible task so that his belief could not be challenged, thereby setting me up to fail. Any other results I produce can therefore be arbitrarily dismissed as he's so far done. However, if you know this ahead of time, you will be able to decide for yourself if the comps hold up.




Here, you've already seen me post this. In ROTJ, he is looking downwards and yet you see more of his mask's frown than in ESB in which he is looking up.

A similar comparison but with a different scene. Both are looking up at slightly different degrees, yet you can see quite a difference. The ESB left eyebrow rim (left as you're looking at it) is almost touching the left eyebrow. In ROTJ the gap appears greater.

This alone is not enough to form a solid conclusion so let's examine the next one.

Here, both are looking upwards slightly. You see a bit more of a gap on ROTJ than on ESB.

This one is far more clear. The ESB is the Bespin shot.



The angles are obviously different but the ROTJ is looking downwards slightly a bit more than ESB, and yet you see more of a frown gap than on ESB.

Let's compare the bespin ESB shot with the ROTJ confrontation by Luke shot. Again, ROTJ is looking downwards and yet you see a greater frown gap.

Here, both looking upwards at somewhat similar angles (though one looks to the left slightly and the other to the right slightly). There is a very clear frown gap. On ESB, the rim is almost touching the left eyebrow.

Let's try that comp again but with a different scene. Here it almost as if the ROTJ dome is not only worn higher but there might be a tiny increase in the distance between the rim and the mask -- this is something worth studying further but should be saved for another thread.

Lastly, in my other "Vader Dome Positioning" thread in which GINO attacked the thread and put the burden of proof on me, it should be noted that GINO didn't appear to want to accept any comps other than profile shots.

Profile shots are fallable because if the dome is tilted towards the camera more, it can create a false positive. If the dome is pivoted away or if the actor turn his head slightly, it can also foil the comp.

What you are about to see, you need to see how much vertical space there is between the rim and the top rectangular notch in the bridge of the nose.

So here, I have accepted GINO's challenge.



Once again, there is a higher gap betwen the rim and the frown on the ROTJ than the ESB setup, so you see more of the ROTJ's mask's frown.

As we can see, the screenshots have spoken.

Great comparisons and a very hard thing to do..

I have always thought that the Jedi dome sits fractionally higher than ESB displaying the brows and frown more as clearly seen in your comparisons.

There are times in ESB when the dome sits higher on the face..I can think of many shots in my mind..but if we go with the consistancy throughout the movies..the dome is much like some of the caps you posted. Everything does vary from time to time with Vader.

Nice work..and thanks for taking the time to do this..

Thanks, darthvaderv,

Some films have more than one copy of a particular prop. Some get damaged so you have backups. Heck, Rocketeer and Indiana Jones had many copies of the same leather jacket. In the case of Rocketeer, the jacket got burned by flames of the jetpack.

So given the number of copies, you have to allow for some variances. I went through http://www.darthkahnt.com 's website for screen captures on ESB and ROTJ. This is only a small sampling of shots that seemed compatable for comparison purposes. There are dozens and dozens of other shots that you just have to eyeball for yourself.

Was the ESB at certain points worn at the same level as ROTJ? It seemed to be the case, but the shots where you saw ROTJ having a larger frown gap were more the norm rather than the exception.

There's a shot where both are looking up and you still see the ROTJ has a larger frown gap than ESB.

Excellent stuff..

Another thing to consider is that in those comparisons, it is very likely that you are comparing the same helmet over and over again as they didn't change out the helmets as much as you would think.

Gino,

The more scenes in which one helmet was used and that the helmet wasn't changed out then shows that there is a consistency with there being a larger frown gap in ROTJ and a smaller one on ESB. Thank you for reinforcing my point.

If you're basically now saying that I was right all along, I require an apology of you for trolling my other thread and trying to undermine my reputation by accusing me of posting false information.