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 Post subject: ESB VADER correct dome set up
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:12 pm 
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The correct dome positioning for ESB Vader is one that I have followed for a looong time now.

The majority of fanmade ESB dome's do not sit or angle correctly. I have seen this time and time again. The set up IMO anyway is vital. Hell, even the actual screen used helmet suffers from different positioning in a variety of shots that I have studied both on paper and on screen.

This brief guide may help reduce time and effort for those who seek that accuracy that has made me gain a few extra grey hairs and a whole lot of stress. This research is being documented as breif but the in-depth version has taken many many months and hours. I hope this is beneficial to some?

ImageImage

All explained breif

As you look at the picture the left and right are obviously reversed regarding Vader. Not to confuse I will go with Vader, for example. When I say left dome, that's VADER's left, our right as we look at it.

*Although the dome position and angles do change throughout the movie according to how they put the dome on and Vader's (Prowse's) movement this guide is consistant and features the same exact set up in the majority of TESB. The pics I have posted do vary very slightly but are more or less the same. Keep in mind Vader is looking up in one pic and more central in the other*

1) Vader's bottom right of the dome is angled so it appears longer than the other side.

2) The dome is not symmetrical at all. Vader's right hand side is positioned to give far less flare when compared to the otherside. Notice the angles are straighter in appearance than the other.

3) Above Vader's right eye the dome arch is slightly different to the other side. The arch and positioning that meet above the right eye shows a definate smaller gap between that and the other side. This is consitant throughout the movie.

4) The beginning of the peak or strip for a better word is mainly consistant with the first 1/4 of Vader's eye arch if you line this up width ways. The gap between the last nose slot and the beginning of the centre strip is under 1/2 inch apart.

5) See bigger ref pic. The centre strip is not dead central. I know this should be in the mould of the helmet etc.. but the right of the beginning of the strip is not in line with the faceplate frown lines nor should it be. It should be fractionally off centre. This is what helps to create the difference in brow and arch size.

6) Throughout Vader's right eye brow and arch combo is considerably bigger.

7) A bigger gap all around the arch is obvious throughout, If you do not catch the angle dead central this will be more pronounced anyway. The bit highlighted is actually showing the same arch section on this side looks like it is marginally positioned higher. It is quite noticeable.

8) Again as the dome flares to Vader's left more this creates a bigger gap.

9) Once more the dome flares far more to Vader's left. A bigger gap is not only visually noticable on measurements taken there is a difference naturally.

10) Beginning of bottom edge of dome is higher than the other side.

11) Very noticeable difference on how the dome sits and the position it meets when compared to the other side.

12) Th greatest indifference IMO comes from the gap beginning with where the arch meets Vader's right eye brow etc..

I can go on and on but this is a quick summary :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:35 pm 
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That's definitely an interesting presentation. :thumbsup


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:07 am 
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Good detail. It might be worthwhile to categorize your findings into which are a matter of how the prop is made versus how the prop is positioned.

For example, if you're talking about how one dome eyebrow is thicker than the other, that is not necessarily a matter of position but rather a matter of how it was made.

An example of how something appears based on how it's positioned is this: when Vader's helmet is worn in this specific way, when facing forward you still see his facemask's eyebrows, and when looking up you see them too. Conversely, in ANH, the dome is worn in such a way that if he looks straight on his eyebrows are partially concealed by the dome's rim, but if viewed up at the same angle you *do* see his eyebrows; you also see an approx. 1 cm. gap between the bridge of the nose and the widow's peak.

I'd encourage you to group your findings, thus, into two categories.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:14 am 
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So as you know the dome sits on the mounting ring so the position of the center ridge is going to be arbitrary since the dome can rotate although it's final position will be dependent on the velcro strip on the forehead. Also, the eyebrow flaring as you pointed out being asymmetrical is that way also on the ANH...it's just that way...nothing to do with angle, etc. The spacing from the eyebrow flaring to the top of the eyes will depend on the mounting ring acting as a spacer. Yes, the front flaring on Vader's right is turned inward a bit compared to the ANH helmet...that's just how it probably came out of the mold. The mounting ring is likely not perfectly horizontal with respect to the top of the faceplate so yes the dome itself sits at a slight angle from horizontal in front view.

I think the main things to consider are the spacing, left to right angle and front to rear angle...the rest is going to vary scene to scene. Also, I would include in your treatise mention of how it should look from the side...hence...

Image


And here's one where the dome sits rotated with center ridge toward Vader's left eye...so it can vary...



Image

Hope you guys like my new HD screencaps :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:18 pm 
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Oh yeah I agree. I said in my first post I will be here all day doing this analyis, that's why I did a very brief version. I did a thread on positioning as this is essential to a fanmade prop to not only be as accurate as possible in the first place but to also position it to have that authentic look.

The dome is not symmetrical at all. (Image courtesy of Thomas, but not the text)

You can see below.

Image

Very Brief summary on ESB dome irregularity's

*As before, when I mention left, that is Vader's left, right as we see it*

The helmet always looks different off than on. The dome pulls into the faceplate and gives an inaccurate representation

1) Vader's right hand side brow arch is lower.

2) Again the arch nearer the centre srip where the eye nearly meets is closer than the other side.

3) The left front of the centre strip peak beginning is angled/trimmed fractionally upwards.

4) The centre strip is not central. It angles more to Vader's right fractionally.
*Note* This picture contains a strip that looks thinner than the actual screen used prop. I believe this may be lighting. If you compare the thickness to the ANH strip from a screen cap etc, ESB is fractionally wider. Same strip as ANH but they tried to straighten out the curve and made it wider in the process.

5) Vader's left arch brow is higher.

6) Again the arch is not symmetrical or in line to the other side.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Going back to the positioning, there is angle upon angle to consider as previously stated.
Velcro does play a part, if you look at the velcro piece used on the Stunt ESB (fencing) you can see the velcro position that favoures one side more than the other (you have to really look for this) and the dome mounting puck is not central, these along with the tabs and ring mount all help to give the dome that positioning.

Thomas I agree it's clear to see the dome is not symmetrical as I put before, it's not all positioning but it's very relevant in the look, especially when you consider the HOTH Vader (I know that was ANH faceplate and the mount was all wrong etc..).

Another view. Same consistancies as before.
Image



Basic Differences between ANH and ESB dome

Wider and marginally softer centre strip.

Widows peak trimmed

Thinner edge than ANH.

Gloss appearance in paint finish.

The ESB dome is a re-tooled ANH dome and carries many similarities naturally.


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 Post subject: ESB Dome set up
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:18 pm 
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The correct dome positioning for ESB Vader is one that I have followed for a looong time now.

Although some members here have the TM dome the display still needs attention. The main thing I was trying to find out a while ago was why did the dome look wonky etc.. and why couldn't I get my SPFX etc..to look right after modification? Well although I improved the look of the fanmade I relised it was just indifferent anyway and after receiving the TM dome all became clear. The dome is very different to the other offering from fanmade ESB domes. Although the TM dome is the same as the screen ESB it needs to be sat on the fixing mech so these things below line up.

This brief guide may help reduce time and effort for those who seek that accuracy that has made me gain a few extra grey hairs and a whole lot of stress. This research is being documented as breif but the in-depth version has taken many many months and hours. I hope this is beneficial to some?

Image
Image





As you can see, the TM dome is correctly sat on the faceplate (give or take a fraction) from this picture from Tom a while back, however..the dome always looks different on the ground, a true test is on a mannequin where the dome should lift.


Image


All explained breif

As you look at the picture the left and right are obviously reversed regarding Vader. Not to confuse I will go with Vader, for example. When I say left dome, that's VADER's left, our right as we look at it.

*Although the dome position and angles do change throughout the movie according to how they put the dome on and Vader's (Prowse's) movement this guide is consistant and features the same exact set up in the majority of TESB. The pics I have posted do vary very slightly but are more or less the same. Keep in mind Vader is looking up in one pic and more central in the other*

1) Vader's bottom right of the dome is angled so it appears longer than the other side.

2) The dome is not symmetrical at all. Vader's right hand side is positioned to give far less flare when compared to the otherside. Notice the angles are straighter in appearance than the other.

3) Above Vader's right eye the dome arch is slightly different to the other side. The arch and positioning that meet above the right eye shows a definate smaller gap between that and the other side. This is consitant throughout the movie.

4) The beginning of the peak or strip for a better word is mainly consistant with the first 1/4 of Vader's eye arch if you line this up width ways. The gap between the last nose slot and the beginning of the centre strip is under 1/2 inch apart.

5) See bigger ref pic. The centre strip is not dead central. I know this should be in the mould of the helmet etc.. but the right of the beginning of the strip is not in line with the faceplate frown lines nor should it be. It should be fractionally off centre. This is what helps to create the difference in brow and arch size.

6) Throughout Vader's right eye brow and arch combo is considerably bigger.

7) A bigger gap all around the arch is obvious throughout, If you do not catch the angle dead central this will be more pronounced anyway. The bit highlighted is actually showing the same arch section on this side looks like it is marginally positioned higher. It is quite noticeable.

Again as the dome flares to Vader's left more this creates a bigger gap.

9) Once more the dome flares far more to Vader's left. A bigger gap is not only visually noticable on measurements taken there is a difference naturally.

10) Beginning of bottom edge of dome is higher than the other side.

11) Very noticeable difference on how the dome sits and the position it meets when compared to the other side.

12) Th greatest indifference IMO comes from the gap beginning with where the arch meets Vader's right eye brow etc..

I can go on and on but this is a quick summary

Image


Very Brief summary on ESB dome irregularity's

*As before, when I mention left, that is Vader's left, right as we see it*

The helmet always looks different off than on. The dome pulls into the faceplate and gives an inaccurate representation

1) Vader's right hand side brow arch is lower.

2) Again the arch nearer the centre srip where the eye nearly meets is closer than the other side.

3) The left front of the centre strip peak beginning is angled/trimmed fractionally upwards.

4) The centre strip is not central. It angles more to Vader's right fractionally.
*Note* This picture contains a strip that looks thinner than the actual screen used prop. I believe this may be lighting. If you compare the thickness to the ANH strip from a screen cap etc, ESB is fractionally wider. Same strip as ANH but they tried to straighten out the curve and made it wider in the process.

5) Vader's left arch brow is higher.

6) Again the arch is not symmetrical or in line to the other side.


Last edited by Darthvaderv on Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:28 pm 
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Awesome Paul. This is what this forum is all about. Great info!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:39 pm 
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I thought I had seen some of that before:

http://thepropden.aokforums.com/esb-vad ... vt353.html

:blah


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:41 pm 
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A couple of things have been changed around :blah


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:26 pm 
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Camera Angles are not matched 100%

In real life this is a great match. But you get the idea how the eyebrows should look. There are naturally some scenes in ESB where the dome is pushed down further so the eyebrow gap is minimal see photos bottom of page.

My "Hero" ESB TM dome (unfinished). How the eyebrows should Look like. Remember my camera angles are off.

Image





Below:How the eyebrows should not look if you want a true hero look for the consistancy...There are more pictures of these examples. However it is not the "norm" for the ESB dome to sit.


Image

Image


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