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 Post subject: ESB Dome Positioning - Bespin vs. Hoth
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:45 pm 
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Fatherless One had asked me to do a vertical-tilt correction to the dome positioning on Hoth scene, given my other Photoshop work on showing correct vertical tilt of the dome in relation to the mask. For example:

Image

So when he showed me this image...

Image

... I unfortunately couldn't work with it. Side shots are far easier for me to work with, as all I need to do is crop and rotate the dome on a two dimensional plane.

However, there is one particular scene in ESB that has a very similar camera angle where the mask is looking off to the upper left in relation to the camera.

Image

Thus I did an overlay study instead. As you can see, the mask of the Hoth scene overlays very well over this Bespin shot. Please pardon the crummy image quality though.

Image

DarthVaderV, any comments? :wink:


Last edited by CSMacLaren on Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ESB Dome Positioning - Bespin vs. Hoth
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:59 pm 
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I may be off here Mac, but doubt it. They used more than one helmet for ESB. Maybe they just positioned the ring in a different location for different helmets. If the things were hastily assembled after being retooled and painted, that could account for this, no?


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 Post subject: Re: ESB Dome Positioning - Bespin vs. Hoth
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am 
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Quote:
DarthVaderV, any comments?




The mask would overlay very well IMO anyway..
Going back to the dome and using the perfect example, the TM. You can experience the exact same thing as the Hoth set up while installing a face mount and inner Dome ring mount. All it takes is positioning, same is said for the hero set up naturally.

As we know the dome is exactly the same as any other ESB Hero or stunt dome in terms of size, shape etc..

Now 4 factors IMO play a big part. As I am sure some know, helmets were matched with faceplates. Not any old combo was put together after Hoth, a system was in place, for Dome to go with the correct face, as each mount was done by hand and they ever so slightly varied.

1) Face mech positoning

2) Dome Ring Positioing

3) Dome postioning

4) Velcro, believe it or not

The right way to set up can be seen in an older thread I did...

esb-dome-set-up-revisited-vt1723.html


The ESB dome is not as consistent in terms of positioning than ROTJ but it is far more consistent than ANH. That ANH dome is a nightmare. I think the best thing to do with the domes, is to be a really sad individual, time all the scenes with eagle eyes and go with the majority hero look so to speak.

As always good comps.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:54 pm 
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Great thread Mac and thanks for doing it, I wish I had the skills.

Can you cut out the Hoth dome and lower it at the rear of the Hoth mask? This should look good.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:58 pm 
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I forgot to add, the first dome positioning reference photo is a perfect example of correct dome positioning :)


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 Post subject: Re: ESB Dome Positioning - Bespin vs. Hoth
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:08 pm 
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Qui-Gonzalez wrote:
I may be off here Mac, but doubt it. They used more than one helmet for ESB. Maybe they just positioned the ring in a different location for different helmets. If the things were hastily assembled after being retooled and painted, that could account for this, no?



They had more than one helmet, yes, but certain helmets had far more screen-time than others. The predominant dome positioning for ESB is the one on the upper left of my comp. The Hoth invasion scene was an exception, rather than the norm.

Fatherless One asked me to create this comparison to facilitate a point he wanted to make. I'm not sure what that point was, but traditionally when talking about dome positioning, it's to show that the same dome can look quite different depending on its vertical tilt.

Up until two years ago, people believed that the Hoth helmet simply had its flange cut short, and I don't believe this to be so. Re-aligning the same dome can create that nice rounded undercurve to the flange's silhouette.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:34 pm 
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Fatherless One wrote:
Great thread Mac and thanks for doing it, I wish I had the skills.

Can you cut out the Hoth dome and lower it at the rear of the Hoth mask? This should look good.


Like this?

Image

I think it still needs a bit of repositioning. I normally look at the receding angle of the mid strip in conjunction with the bridge of the nose. If it's parallel with the bridge of the nose, the dome looks wrong in the front, and the rear picks up and exposes the back of the neck.

I had posted this a while back. I believe the Hoth scene simply has too much forward tilt.

Image

In the above image, the photo on the right is the dome positioning of the screen-used hero helmet.

Image

A example of a vendor helmet with too much forward tilt is the AngryWookie ANH dome. Again, notice the mid strip and how it's tilted forward. The photo on the right is how it appears in real life. The image on the left is a simulation to subtract the 2" flange extension they added in order to cover the back of the neck.


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 Post subject: Re: ESB Dome Positioning - Bespin vs. Hoth
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:23 am 
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The most likely scenerio to me would be that they grabbed a dome from another mask and used it on this faceplate. In other words it was a mismatched set.

But its equally possible they had the 'new guy' do it and he simply f***ed it all up. :toothy


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 Post subject: Re: ESB Dome Positioning - Bespin vs. Hoth
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:23 am 
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Vadermonkey wrote:
The most likely scenerio to me would be that they grabbed a dome from another mask and used it on this faceplate. In other words it was a mismatched set.

But its equally possible they had the 'new guy' do it and he simply f***ed it all up. :toothy


AFAIK this was the very first Vader scene which was shot for ESB. Prowse wrote the following in his ESB diary:

26 March - Day One: "Put the Vader suit on in the afternoon but the helmet is not sitting straight so alterations have to be made" (no scene was shot with him that day).
28 March: "Did one shot today of me storming through the wreckage of the control center. Had the mask and the helmet on for the second time, the first time to actually work in it. It's still awful. The mask didn't sit right on the face and the helmet angle is all wrong, exposing the back of my neck, ..."

Could it be possible that the mountig rings were added after those scenes were shot as a last minute alteration? Additionally, the Hoth faceplate had a smaller chin vent like the ANH faceplate. All later helmets had a larger chin vent.


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 Post subject: Re: ESB Dome Positioning - Bespin vs. Hoth
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:57 pm 
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Thanks Tom, I read that somewhere on the forum too...looks like the new guy did do it! :wink:

It may be also they went to a 20thC-type which sits flatter on the face than the way they did it on the stunt for example which is at more of an angle which makes it harder to get the ring in the dome to sit correctly.

It'd be nice to see under the dome on these different helmets. Did you get to handle ESB masks while in the archives?


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:01 am 
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CSMacLaren wrote:
Fatherless One wrote:
Great thread Mac and thanks for doing it, I wish I had the skills.

Can you cut out the Hoth dome and lower it at the rear of the Hoth mask? This should look good.


Like this?

Image

Great, now can you give the slight vertical tilt treatment?


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 Post subject: Re: ESB Dome Positioning - Bespin vs. Hoth
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:44 pm 
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Excellent work as usual mac. :thumbsup


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 Post subject: Re: ESB Dome Positioning - Bespin vs. Hoth
PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:32 am 
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I'm reminded of an interview Dave Prowse gave in Starlog issue number 36 from July 1980 in which he talked about the difficulty of that particular opening shooting sequence. A caption of a photo of that scene is "Vader storms through hole blasted and cave wall --- without tripping."

So obviously visibility was important and difficult in that scene. You see that he has to navigate sideways through a narrow corridor and as he emerges he turns left and sharply right and you can see the dome moving laterally.

Peripheral vision would be improved with the unusual dome position as it appears in the movie for this scene with the dome raised and tilted forward as the side edges of the dome are moved backwards away from the eyes. Just speculating but perhaps the dome alignment was modified just for this particular scene to improve visibility. Or maybe it got knocked out of alignment as he was trying to navigate past that narrow corridor. (Stormtroopers aren't the only characters who might bump their heads!)


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 Post subject: Re: ESB Dome Positioning - Bespin vs. Hoth
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:13 am 
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An atypical faceplate/dome fitting is probably the likely explanation. Additional factors could contribute to accentuate the unusual look of the helmet due to a combination of:
1) Perspective distortion as described in Maclaren's excellent thread on the subject. Vader is likely close to the camera during the latter part of this scene. Details closer to the camera (faceplate) look larger than those further away (dome);
2) The entire front neckline is visible which gives the impression that the dome is not as tall by comparison;
3) Dave is tilting his head down through much of the scene making the back of the helmet higher than usual.
These factors could contribute to make the dome look smaller and foreshortened in height.


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 Post subject: Re: ESB Dome Positioning - Bespin vs. Hoth
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:13 am 
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After carefully reading through darthvaderv dome positioning and rereading this thread's analysis and excellent picture comparisons, it's apparent this is a real effect due to relative positioning of faceplate and dome. Optical effects may have some impact, but they are not dominating factors.

I believe it's both a translational (height) change as well as an rotational (tilt angle) change compared to the typical mount fitting.

Dusting off my old Don Post Deluxe DP DLX #525, I attempted to approximate the Hoth mount configuration. I recognize that the mounting systems are not the same as an ESB (or 20th Century) and that the DP DLX has greater vertical separation. These DP DLX Hoth pics could be graphically edited to move the dome down about 0.5 inch to account for this.

I simulated the Hoth mounting position by intentionally "missing" the fitting of the faceplate ring into the dome ring. I positioned the faceplate ring a bit behind and on top of the back of the dome ring. This imposes a translational change resulting in an overall increase in height. The front of the faceplate ring fits slightly within the dome ring as the dome is tilted forward but is limited in rotation to the point in front where the faceplate meets the dome (also where velcro is located). Needless to say, this is not a very stable mount configuration for the DP DLX.

Inside view of Hoth mounting approximation using DP DLX:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B13YyeojRHKeaDlXcEhHZWd5a0E/edit?usp=sharing

Hoth mounting approximation, 2 views:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B13YyeojRHKeUjBjbDBpeDRBRlE/edit?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B13YyeojRHKeempmTmpxeWxMX0k/edit?usp=sharing

Comparison: Normal DP DLX mounting on the left; Hoth mounting approximation on the right:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B13YyeojRHKeUzBaaVZvckExbUE/edit?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B13YyeojRHKecDJyU0M4WkhzUTA/edit?usp=sharing


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