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 Post subject: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:49 pm 
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I was just thinking about this, whats the view here on how many Vader helmets were made for ESB, and whether the same ones were just re-used for RotJ.

Do we know how mnay different Vader helmets were used in ESB and RotJ, or was it just one master helmet (ignoring the see-through cheek stunts)

So whats the view?

Cheers

Jez


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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:49 pm 
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According to my research and sources -

2 x hero helmets made for "Empire", 1 mainly used (I believe the Hoth was re-altered at some point, also Dagobah was a hero) a 3rd hero was possibly made.
1 x reveal, (there is a rumour that one of the hero masks was infact turned into the reveal but shooting schedule IMO says otherwise, I would say that is incorrect).
1 x stunt
1-2 X Dagobah reveal (Edit), I forgot to mention this.

A count of 6 castings with a possibility of 7- 8 in total used based .


Not all these helmets were used on screen for long.

Also there was possibly a test casting used for lighting and for picking shots as rumour has it, although this is not confirmed as 100% definate.

We know the Paul Allen stunt mask is still around and the PH Vader. There is also another.

One of the Empire helmets features in ROTJ also.

Whether more than one ESB was turned into ROTJ is difficult to say but at least one is. Judging from the above account, it is impossible to say most were turned into ROTJ helmets, that's not correct.

I'm in a rush so thats the basics of it, I have to shoot but I hope that helped :thumbsup


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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:32 pm 
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Excellent thread Jez, and thanks for that info Paul!

There's also the helmet with the exploding face that reveals Luke's head (which I think would actually be two helmets; one pre-scored and rigged to explode with Hamil's head cast inside, and a another cut-away mask that Mark could pop his head into lying under a fake ground surface).

Then there's the intact helmet that rolls across the ground in the shot just before the explosion, could that be one of the 3 heroes Paul? It's paintjob isn't quite as flashy (didn't need to be of course) but there's something about the look of the helmet that I've always liked!


Jeremy


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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:26 pm 
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gonk27 wrote:
There's also the helmet with the exploding face that reveals Luke's head (which I think would actually be two helmets; one pre-scored and rigged to explode with Hamil's head cast inside, and a another cut-away mask that Mark could pop his head into lying under a fake ground surface).

The two - though with minor differences - still look remarkably similar to me and seems more likely to be the same helmet... only retouched between the two shoots.
Image

gonk27 wrote:
Then there's the intact helmet that rolls across the ground in the shot just before the explosion, could that be one of the 3 heroes Paul? It's paintjob isn't quite as flashy (didn't need to be of course) but there's something about the look of the helmet that I've always liked!

Had a theory that it might be the same helmet as seen in the RotJ reveal scene - same paint job - but never could find enough evidence to confirm anything.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:37 pm 
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Good question.

Paul, are you basing the numbers you have on for ESB in terms of what appears onscreen? The reason I ask is that the Paul Allen ESB stunt helmet has the number "5" inside.


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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:44 pm 
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NoHumorMan wrote:
gonk27 wrote:
gonk27 wrote:
Then there's the intact helmet that rolls across the ground in the shot just before the explosion, could that be one of the 3 heroes Paul? It's paintjob isn't quite as flashy (didn't need to be of course) but there's something about the look of the helmet that I've always liked!

Had a theory that it might be the same helmet as seen in the RotJ reveal scene - same paint job - but never could find enough evidence to confirm anything.
Image


Definitely not the same.

And FYI the one that rolls onscreen is not the same as the one you picture with the dagoba background. My guess is that one is the one Vader wore during his saber duel in the underground cave.


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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:19 am 
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SithLord wrote:
Good question.

Paul, are you basing the numbers you have on for ESB in terms of what appears onscreen? The reason I ask is that the Paul Allen ESB stunt helmet has the number "5" inside.



About 15 months ago one of the people I contacted was Tom about his experiences in the archives in 95' as I believe one of them that he handled could of been an ESB as there should of been one present at the time but I could not confirm it. For many years an ESB was there and I do believe even in it's re-location it still is. The number is significant to me and significant to the dome and facemask as I'm sure you know Thomas. I find it interesting that they actually had a method as they rushed so many things.


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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:34 am 
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gonk27 wrote:
Excellent thread Jez, and thanks for that info Paul!

There's also the helmet with the exploding face that reveals Luke's head (which I think would actually be two helmets; one pre-scored and rigged to explode with Hamil's head cast inside, and a another cut-away mask that Mark could pop his head into lying under a fake ground surface).

Then there's the intact helmet that rolls across the ground in the shot just before the explosion, could that be one of the 3 heroes Paul? It's paintjob isn't quite as flashy (didn't need to be of course) but there's something about the look of the helmet that I've always liked!


Jeremy


Hi Jeremy,

My initial post was in such haste as I was out the door and I completely discounted the dagobah reveal helmet/s. one of them should be called the "extra" for all the time it lasts on screen. Carsten is correct that the Dagobah reveal is the same one but what is different at first glance is this . You can see the differences. Also these Dagobah scenes were some of the last to be on film.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:21 am 
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What, do you mean the one you show from the helmet roll scene is the same one as has Luke's head in it?


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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:32 am 
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Thanks for the input guys.

7 sounds right to me (and backs up what I'd heard), which going back to Paul's list suggests:

3 x main "Hero" helmets - have these been placed in the movie?
1 x Reveal, (Q-could this not just be a hero with a neck brace? - sorry but its been a long time since Ive seen ESB).
1 x stunt with perspex cheeks
1 x Dagobah/Luke reveal.
1 x "Other" - potentially a lighting helmet stuck on a pole.

So it sounds like 7 castings were made off a casting made on a remaining ANH helmet. Then they chose the best few to use as close-up's and the rest finished with a little less care since they knew they wouldnt use them for anything other than long shots or a lighting prop.

Did all the helmets have the same face/dome connections?

Moving onto Jedi its my belief they used 3 or 4 of the same helmets again, rather than go through all the hassle of making more. However does this conflict with the photo of the LFL guys goofing around?

Did the ESB and RotJ have the same dome connections?

Cheers

Jez


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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:35 am 
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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:10 pm 
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BingoBongo275 wrote:
Thanks for the input guys.

7 sounds right to me (and backs up what I'd heard), which going back to Paul's list suggests:

"Hero" helmets - have these been placed in the movie?
Reveal, (Q-could this not just be a hero with a neck brace? - sorry but its been a long time since Ive seen ESB).


Hi Jez, I have counted 2 hero's on screen for definate but a 3rd was made, I think I know where it features but I am only 90% on that, I am 100% on a promotional picture that there was a 3rd hero though.

as for the reveal, I have heard the same, but it doesn't add up from what I know, the facemask is different so it is more than the neck brace as seen here. I ruled it out based on investigating the shooting schedule and no direct mention that it was a hero originally, so I would state it as seperate.

Image

Quote:
Did all the helmets have the same face/dome connections?


The numbers were significant as a matching pair as they were individually hand made, so #3 will not match a dome that has number 1 in it. This was confirmed with Vadermania and his experiences handling some helmets in the archives.

Quote:
Moving onto Jedi its my belief they used 3 or 4 of the same helmets again, rather than go through all the hassle of making more. However does this conflict with the photo of the LFL guys goofing around?


I don't know half as much on the subject about ROTJ Vader as I do ESB/ANH, so it's possible, I wouldn't like to say 100% but if the rumoured 7 Jedi helmets turned out to be 4 ESB's I doubt it through a process of elimination.

1 ESB dagobah reveal was blown up, the ESB reveal is not a hero, the PA stunt exsists today and so does 2 hero's.

Quote:
Did the ESB and RotJ have the same dome connections?


Yes and no. They mainly used the same connection (hat mount) for the main helmet as seen in jedi which was an ESB originally before alteration. The same mount also features on the ROTJ stunt. However the DP style of mounting ring which was widely thought to be used I'm sure features. Many think due to that promo pic with the prop guys that the taller DP ring was used more so, at one time I thought that also but I have since seen photographic evidence to indicate otherwise.

Quote:
So it sounds like 7 castings were made off a casting made on a remaining ANH helmet


Yes, I would say so although just speculating one of the helmets may be the actual ANH, although I pretend otherwise just due to the thought :ac10 .

:cheers


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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:18 pm 
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Thanks for the info Paul, (and yes NHM I see now that you're right I think about the helmet with the fake head and the one with Hamil's own face being the same one).

Paul, is the PH helmet one of the 3 heroes?

Also where would you say the ESB helmet and shoulders that Don Bies repainted fits into all this? and as for the "other" that Jez mentions, do I take it that's TM's original?


Jeremy



BingoBongo275 wrote:
3 x main "Hero" helmets - have these been placed in the movie?
1 x Reveal, (Q-could this not just be a hero with a neck brace? - sorry but its been a long time since Ive seen ESB).
1 x stunt with perspex cheeks
1 x Dagobah/Luke reveal.
1 x "Other" - potentially a lighting helmet stuck on a pole.

Jez


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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:38 pm 
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BingoBongo275 wrote:
So it sounds like 7 castings were made off a casting made on a remaining ANH helmet. Then they chose the best few to use as close-up's and the rest finished with a little less care since they knew they wouldnt use them for anything other than long shots or a lighting prop.


The ESB helmets were as everyone knows derived from the screen ANH. But there are many questions associated with this. You suggest that a "remaining ANH helmet" was a template, so perhaps one of the three original ANHs made. It is clear that THE screen ANH was the template although whether directly or not is uncertain. What is certain is that the helmet (or just the mask?) was molded on two separate occasions...and possibly a third time although that is more doubtful. The ESB masks appear to come from one of those molds. Although not impossible, there isn't anything I've seen to indicate that the original ANH ended up being used for ESB directly. But given the highly finished nature of the ESB heros the possibility is still there. But to me it is counter-intuitive if they had to make so many helmets anyway to re-use that one original ANH, which by that time would have seen a lot of touring duty, was a thin casting to begin with, and was reportedly returned to LFL prior to the release of ESB.

Just another image of the ESB reveal helmet. The mask itself has a boundary with the neck (see the lower chin line), implying that the mask itself was designed to separate from the neck. Although it looks two-tone, the nose inside doesn't appear to be painted? And it is interesting how the helmet rests on the armor and the mask is so low inside the armor. We know this wasn't Dave Prowse so that's probably why.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: ESB and RotJ Vader helmet's -what do we know?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:55 pm 
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gonk27 wrote:
Thanks for the info Paul, (and yes NHM I see now that you're right I think about the helmet with the fake head and the one with Hamil's own face being the same one).

Paul, is the PH helmet one of the 3 heroes?

Also where would you say the ESB helmet and shoulders that Don Bies repainted fits into all this? and as for the "other" that Jez mentions, do I take it that's TM's original?
Jeremy




Jeremy, The PH is one of the hero's, I also find interest in the clapperboard Vader and Warwick helmet.

I don't personally believe that the don bies repaint is an ESB screen used piece so IMO it doesn't fit into the equation of the ones mentioned. The dome has far more traits of a ROTJ dome and the face from what I can make out does not share enough consistancy to be ESB screen used. I actually think it is a cast of screen but not from ESB or ROTJ per se. I think I heard something some years back about it being related to an early DP as a possibility if memory serves.

I looked into many possibilities around 15mths ago and did alot of research into these things but unfortuantely I can't find anyone who knows EXACTLY what happened to every single piece and can account for what they all are. I was trying to get hold of facemask and dome numbers for the ESB production but could not get them all and what exsists today I can't find any consistancy or anyone willing to give them out other than according to Mike the #5 remains in the PA stunt and I got a #3 dome but not a face confirmed, I have also seen a piece unnumbered. I know screen and tour pieces and other mixed sets that have all different numbers amongst them but very little adds up correctly. IMO It would be wrong to imply that anyone thesedays knows the exact location of everything, I simply don't believe that without proof as you would need not only the archives but the private collectors to correspond.

Edit* - Sorry I didn't notice the last part about the TM.

It is a possibility. I do know that Kershner and co would often like to pick their shots and lighting before the scene was set up. They were continuously concerned over many aspects and reflection was one of them which along with 3PO caused them issues. I have been accused in the past of being biased for the TM just because I own a casting, but in reality weighing many options up although it is an obvious authentic cast from ESB I believe it is ESB production taking everything into consideration, although another aspect we can't be 100% about. Just like most involved back in 1979 can't remember exact accounts.


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