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 Post subject: ANH Vader rework
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:18 am 
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I have been spending the last month and a half reworking my ANH dome to be more like the film used piece.

My main complaint about it is the shape over the right temple area. And also of how both side skirts just don't seem to drape right.

This is something similar of what I started with. Notice of how the area over the temple just sort of sucks in?

Image

I have spent allot of time reworking this so far. And I do have a better dome that I have been using as a visual reference. Another artist made it and so I can't use it as a basis for a new dome mold by just dumping rubber over it.

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 Post subject: Re: ANH Vader rework
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:47 am 
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I applaud your stance to not recast this latter helmet, but you said someone else made it. What helmet did he make it out of? Is the latter an SPFX?

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 Post subject: Re: ANH Vader rework
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:50 am 
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Well Mac, to be honest I have a bit that I would like to say about this dome.

Everyone knows that I copied the SPFX dome. Everyone told me that Phil copied it from a GH dome. I had asked GH for permission to make copies from the SPFX after I modded it somewhat. GH said that he did not mind if I copied the thing because to him it was now very much removed from what it was in the first place and that he was pretty much out of the hobby anyway.

I have been studying what came from where according to many different opinions over the last few years and have pretty much just believed what I read. Recently the eFx helmet has got me really thinking. Comparing the promo and con photos of the eFx with the screen grabs that I have collected and found on here. I noticed that my casting copied from the SPFX had the same general shape as the Stuart Freeborn castings.

Now I have out in my studio a GH dome that I have been fixing up on commission for a fella I know. And have been comparing the dome I made from off Phil's' piece side by side with the GH. I now have well over 120 hours between studying the pieces, and in re-sculpting the SPFX copy to more closely match both the film used, and the GH dome.

In all of this work I am about 95% convinced that there is no way that Phil re casted GH for his initial ANH offering. The newer SPFX is still a strong possibility. But in no way is the SPFX I made a copy from, a GH recast. There is just to many differences between them that it could be. I have added much material to just about every square inch of the SPFX, and have had to grind down other places as well in order to closely match the GH and the screen caps that I have used.

With this in mind I have come to a decision. My reputation is already marked with copying the SPFX, and I am fine with that. I now wish that I haddn't, that can't be undone now. However I can't go on making copy's of a piece that I know I was wrong about. So I am no longer going to be making any more castings from the ANH mold that I currently have. When this new master casting is to where I want it, a new mold will be made from it and the old one will be destroyed.

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 Post subject: Re: ANH Vader rework
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:00 am 
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Just for clairity.
The top photo is one of my castings made from a SPFX dome. The lower two are of my newer recreation. And this next photo is of the real SPFX that I reciently sold on ebay.

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 Post subject: Re: ANH Vader rework
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:02 am 
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Did you forget to post the other two photos?

SPFX started out with a recast GH dome and he modded it over many years. His present ANH dome is just a worked up GH. He redid the flaring eyebrows, the center ridge, worked on the flaring edges, and built up the crown to make it appear larger. I could point out the flaws in his work but why should I help him improve his dome? But if you compare it to an authentic ANH dome and then with the GH, it is pretty clear it still came originally from a GH, in spite of the extensive amount of modifications made to his domes over the years. There are still tells SPFX is not aware of that are specific to the GH dome and not on an authentic ANH dome that he will not be aware of.

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 Post subject: Re: ANH Vader rework
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:04 pm 
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Though sanitized, the DP DLX dome is a more accurately shaped dome than the GH style domes. Once you know how the originals really look, you'll be able to spot the GH style domes more easily and they will seem wrong. Those who still swears to GH style domes being accurate simply don't have access to or knowledge enough about the real and accurate domes.

Couple that with years and years of helmets with GH style domes, and people getting familiarized with that look. I thought as you did regarding the SPFX once... but... getting access to the more accurate stuff and the GH features stand out like a sore thumb and the SPFX has those tells.

But still, deciding to go a new route with a new dome is still a good choice, imo.

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 Post subject: Re: ANH Vader rework
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:56 pm 
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Take all of the photos that I have posted already as one post, and it might make more sense.

And Yes, Carsten. I am familiar with the shapes of which you speak of. No, I have never held anything other than what I have described, and have also owned a DP Deluxe. This new casting is currently in its second coat of primmer. The finish that you all see is not paint. But rather a 3 part epoxy primmer. I like using it to prototype a new piece as it allowes to me to have a shiny surface to look at that is still very easy to sand. And even at almost $400.00 a gallon sprayable, it saves me a lot of time and money in the long run.

A trick that I use when redoing something like this has pointed out a major flaw in this rendition. And what I mean by, "flaw" is a deviation from the film used one. I knew about the flaw before I really got started on this project. But I wanted to get other shapes in first before I made any major changes to the casting so that I wouldn't be chasing my tail for months. The flaw is what I would call a, "core shift" at about the eye level. The SPFX, eFx, and even GH all have this same shape. I am not going to really go into great detail of what I am talking about. But rather I will just show you in photos this week. Those who know what is being discussed here will instantly see it.

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 Post subject: Re: ANH Vader rework
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:23 pm 
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Stone,

Please remember: 6 foot distance, and eye-level. The mask has to look directly into the camera for us to assess the shape properly with you. Photos looking iconically upwards don't really help.

I recall a major rework by Phil a while back shortly after either private TM-related photos started leaking out, and/or the TM article published here on the Den with photos of the original dome. Shortly after the article, at least, Phil unveiled his ESB and, at first glance, it looked like a TM recast, until you looked a little more closely at it.

If any of those modifications went also into his ANH, then you'd have a helmet that, even if you sanded some features down, would not necessarily revert it into a stock condition GH ANH.

Although the Don Post Deluxe is a good starting base, I do wonder of the size difference between that and a GH ANH. The DP Deluxe is larger. The SPFX may also be slightly bigger than the GH ANH because of the stuff Phil added or because of physical manipulation. Some domes may appear bigger simply because they are more flared on the sides when viewed from the front, but they may not necessarily be proportionately deeper. Anyway, size-wise, I suspect something smaller than a DP Deluxe would be a good match for the 20th Century.

Anyway, can you stand maybe 10-12 feet back and do a side-by-side comparison between the GH ANH and the SPFX domes?

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 Post subject: Re: ANH Vader rework
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:40 pm 
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I thought that I did pretty well on the in progress shots of my dome, (6 feet back, although a bit blurry). But yes, the bottom one of the SPFX was shot to make it look good for ebay.

I would have to use a tripod to get a decent shot out doors at 10 feet. And at about dusk this evening would be the best time.

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 Post subject: Re: ANH Vader rework
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:13 pm 
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I'm trying to track with you, but having re-read the thread three times, I still need help! :blah

I tracked up to the point where you said you were abandoning the SPFX helmet as a platform for your work, but the progress shots on your bench were of an SPFX-as-a-base?

Have you considered using that 20th Century dome as a base?

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 Post subject: Re: ANH Vader rework
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:21 pm 
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OK, now I have gotten a PM saying much the same thing as you Mac. Just what dome are you using? To all who are reading this. The bare casting above is my 20th C faceplate with the modded SPFX dome.

I had given the 20th C a thought back about a year and a half ago for conversion to ANH. But I had thought that it was to big in it's size when I got the SPFX. So I went with the SPFX for my ANH basis up until I received the GH dome. The GH is a bit larger than the SPFX in many areas, but still smaller than my 20th C dome.

Mac asked if I had thought of using the 20th C dome. I have just went out into the studio and compared the 20th C with both the modded SPFX, and the GH domes for the first time. And I will be damed if the lines on the 20th C are not what I have been chasing all along to make the SPFX look like. :cheers

I had thought that if I modded the SPFX enough that it would be considered as mine. But I can see now that it is completely useless and I can now dump the whole project and begain to mod a 20th C for my ANH offering.

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 Post subject: Re: ANH Vader rework
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:58 pm 
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Glad I played a part in pointing you in the right direction then.

Can you posts some 6 foot shots of the 20th Cent dome with the 20th cent mask? I don't recall ever seeing any directly looking into the camera at eye level. Would be interesting to assess the shape. If you have an ANH configuration 20th Century mask, then even better, as the dome ring may cause the 20th Cent dome to sit a bit too high and pitched forward for an ANH look.

But let's see how it turns out in the photo tests.

At some point, let's also do a side-by-side comp between the SPFX dome and the 20th Cent dome. It's not impossible for Phil to mod his GH ANH to make it more 20th Century like. However, if he actually got a hold of a 20th Century dome and simply recast that, then I take back all I said about his mods.

Edit: Oh, BTW, I advocate a distance greater than 6 feet when it comes to side-by-side comparisons, if your camera can handle it. Usually 10 feet or so is great.

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 Post subject: Re: ANH Vader rework
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:19 am 
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Too Much Garlic wrote:
Though sanitized, the DP DLX dome is a more accurately shaped dome than the GH style domes. Once you know how the originals really look, you'll be able to spot the GH style domes more easily and they will seem wrong. Those who still swears to GH style domes being accurate simply don't have access to or knowledge enough about the real and accurate domes.

Couple that with years and years of helmets with GH style domes, and people getting familiarized with that look. I thought as you did regarding the SPFX once... but... getting access to the more accurate stuff and the GH features stand out like a sore thumb and the SPFX has those tells.

But still, deciding to go a new route with a new dome is still a good choice, imo.



This argument goes back a long time. At one point I remember you trying to point out the problems with the GH dome shape with respect to the original dome. I remember your comparisons distinctly. And at the time I didn't have an authentic dome to compare against, so I let it go.

But now I do, so I had a second look at those old arguments.

The only things different about the GH dome apart from it being cleaned up extensively are the following:

1. Left flaring curve over the eye is a sharper curve than the original, and it seems to arise from the left eyebrow being sanded back on that side quite a bit, probably to make it symmetrical with the right side. Plus that left flaring is pushed slightly inward.

2. Right eyebrow is made symmetrical to the left.

3. Front eyebrow edges were trimmed back as well and smoothed out.

4. The dome crown on the left side is more square in front view probably because that side was built up slightly to make it more symmetrical, that is just how it came out of the mold.

5. Widow's peak indentation reworked into a Y-shape.

6. Center ridge trimmed/sanded so that the curvature and thickness is different.

7. Left side bottom flaring edge trimmed back to make it symmetrical with the right.

8. From the right side the rear flaring slope near the center ridge is steeper, but that is because the crown sticks out more at the transition between the crown and the flaring.

And that's it. Everything else about the shape of the GH is pretty much the same as an authentic ANH helmet. Yes it is cleaned up a lot and the eyebrows made to be symmetrical. But the shape of the original has been retained.

And to say a DP Deluxe is more accurate in shape as an ANH helmet than the GH is just simply untrue. The DP Deluxe is ESB-shaped and even more smoothed out than the GH. For anyone to say something like that makes me wonder if they know anything about domes.

And SPFX modified his dome to try and correct what people thought were flaws on the GH and in the process took it even further away from being like the original.

And when the eFX helmets come out anyone can prove me wrong, but I've already done the comparison with something far more accurate than an eFX dome. But I think people will be surprised how similar they actually are.

Here is a comparison I did back in March of 2006...and we only had the DJ ANH back then to compare with.

Image

So the bottom line is you say the GH ANH dome is so wrong and inaccurate....no it is just cleaned up and made symmetrical on the eyebrows but the overall shape is still there, surprisingly.

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 Post subject: Re: ANH Vader rework
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:23 am 
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CSMacLaren wrote:
The SPFX may also be slightly bigger than the GH ANH because of the stuff Phil added or because of physical manipulation.


FYI the V2 SPFX dome is larger than a GH copy, but I also think he did something to enlarge it.

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 Post subject: Re: ANH Vader rework
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:28 am 
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CSMacLaren wrote:
Edit: Oh, BTW, I advocate a distance greater than 6 feet when it comes to side-by-side comparisons, if your camera can handle it. Usually 10 feet or so is great.


It will also depend on the focal length of the lens, not just distance. For a single helmet at 6ft zooming in a bit is like being at 10ft without zooming in, again depending on the focal length. Even at 10 ft you should angle the helmets inward a bit to face the camera as there will still be a bit of parallax error at that distance for two helmets.

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