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 Post subject: Re: Wanna see where many Star Wars props (screen used) ends?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:35 pm 
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No Humor Man wrote:
Yup. That's not reflection off the lenses. It is a reflection off the brow just above the eyebrow edges. Hold your own face mask in that angle and you'll see.

And here's a picture for reference using the 3D scan of the TM. There's absolutely no doubt.
Image



I stand wonderfully corrected!!!! Love it. :toothy


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 Post subject: Re: Wanna see where many Star Wars props (screen used) ends?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:52 am 
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So is this indeed the same mask used in the original Star Wars?

This forum is comprised of members who have the greatest interest in wanting to know the answer to that question and likely the greatest experience in knowing what to look for to answer to that question correctly with a high degree of confidence. Two experts here have already stated unequivocally that this is absolutely that mask. Others including myself are adopting a wait-and-see stance believing that more information and analysis is needed.

I would want actual measurements from the mask like height, width, weight. I'd want feature measurements like arc length around the mask; distance between the outer tips of the cheek. I'd want to know what material it is made from. I'd want to see the inside view of the mask. I'd want a detailed 3D scan to be performed to create a 3D model and run numerical, statistical comparisons of 2D projections of that model against every on-screen image containing the mask.

For me it would take this amount effort to prove in my mind that this is the original mask, because I'm not an expert, and I can't arrive at that conclusion by drawing from my intuition and recognize its authenticity instantly from a video clip and a few screen captures.

And for anyone who might think this is not the original mask, I would urge you not to say or write that opinion, because you might invite a slander or libel suit. It isn't slander or libel if your statements are the true. But you can still be brought to trial and incur the costs of defending yourself. And the courts will weigh expert opinion heavily in determining what is the truth. If you are found guilty, you could be liable to the owner for damages incurred from defamation of character and/or loss of income from the revenues that might have been lost in book sales, exhibition ticket sales, and the market's valuation of the mask.

Am I overreacting? Perhaps. But this is not just any item. It's an item that could be worth millions of dollars. And that makes it quite serious. I maintain the highest interest in this hobby. But not enough to put myself at risk losing everything I own.


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 Post subject: Re: Wanna see where many Star Wars props (screen used) ends?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:04 am 
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While I am something of an expert(ish) I definitely know when other folk are sicker and more knowledgeable than I am - folks who dream of fondling specific crevices as they differ from mask to mask, film to film. Folks who think of Vader contours during sex. Folks who wonder if the tusks are sensitive. Folks who hunt for women in life based on the shape of their widow's peak...

These folks are the true experts. And they are probably reading this.

These folks, like myself and more than myself, immediately saw it with that first photo. We all stopped. We knew that something had happened. It was at once more healthy and more perverted than any prior such combination.

Granted, we all want a better look.

But at this point it is only to see if there is something "wrong" with everyone's conclusion.

And if it's there, the sickest, to whom I bow down unworthy and unwashed, will find it....

;)


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 Post subject: Re: Wanna see where many Star Wars props (screen used) ends?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:14 am 
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Thanks DJ for making me laugh and lightening the mood, my mood at least. I appreciate what you're saying and how you said it. And I can confirm, firsthand, that the tusks are sensitive.


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 Post subject: Re: Wanna see where many Star Wars props (screen used) ends?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:55 am 
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Darth Niob wrote:
Guess how much they would take for the mask :eek


They quoted you a number?

I hope you asked for The Prop Den forum member preferred pricing.


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 Post subject: Re: Wanna see where many Star Wars props (screen used) ends?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:46 am 
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The find of the century! For the past 4 days I've been glued to this thread & it came on my 40th birthday day. Wow what a present !
I saw the thread just as was scanning they my phone just before going to bed, then was glued to it for 40Mins reading & analysing the photos. Exclamations from me such as "whohhh honey they found the Mona Lisa of Star Wars". (Not that she cares)
Can't believe I was so completely captivated I missed clueing into the last present on offer!
The original mask will do that too you!

Looking forward to the photographic analysis and that will determine the extend of repainting & where the TM fits in the line.
Awesome stuff- .....experts do your thing!


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 Post subject: Re: Wanna see where many Star Wars props (screen used) ends?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 5:07 am 
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Stop it Darthjones you're turning me on...lol

I know what you mean, though, the instant I saw it I knew "That's it".

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Wanna see where many Star Wars props (screen used) ends?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 5:25 am 
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darthjones wrote:
While I am something of an expert(ish) I definitely know when other folk are sicker and more knowledgeable than I am - folks who dream of fondling specific crevices as they differ from mask to mask, film to film. Folks who think of Vader contours during sex. Folks who wonder if the tusks are sensitive. Folks who hunt for women in life based on the shape of their widow's peak...

These folks are the true experts. And they are probably reading this.

These folks, like myself and more than myself, immediately saw it with that first photo. We all stopped. We knew that something had happened. It was at once more healthy and more perverted than any prior such combination.

Granted, we all want a better look.

But at this point it is only to see if there is something "wrong" with everyone's conclusion.

And if it's there, the sickest, to whom I bow down unworthy and unwashed, will find it....

;)



I couldn't have said it better myself John.


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 Post subject: Re: Wanna see where many Star Wars props (screen used) ends?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:11 am 
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banthapoodoo wrote:
I would want actual measurements from the mask like height, width, weight. I'd want feature measurements like arc length around the mask; distance between the outer tips of the cheek. I'd want to know what material it is made from. I'd want to see the inside view of the mask. I'd want a detailed 3D scan to be performed to create a 3D model and run numerical, statistical comparisons of 2D projections of that model against every on-screen image containing the mask.

Since you don't have the measurements of the original face mask, what good would those be? Also, I doubt very much you will get a scan of this piece, let alone be able to match it perfectly to pictures and screen captures. You'd have to know what camera was used, what distance, what lens, and so on and so on in order to do that. None of these will provide any sort of proof. Comparing damage, details, and various other visible clues is the only way to confirm it... and so far it has been shown to be a match to the Elstree Props photo. Now the hunt begins to match it to other pictures of the real deal - pre and post repaint.

banthapoodoo wrote:
And for anyone who might think this is not the original mask, I would urge you not to say or write that opinion, because you might invite a slander or libel suit. It isn't slander or libel if your statements are the true. But you can still be brought to trial and incur the costs of defending yourself. And the courts will weigh expert opinion heavily in determining what is the truth. If you are found guilty, you could be liable to the owner for damages incurred from defamation of character and/or loss of income from the revenues that might have been lost in book sales, exhibition ticket sales, and the market's valuation of the mask.

Actually, the owner only stated it was A original from ANH, not THE original, so there's no risk of libel or slander charge. I don't see anyone disputing the fact that it is an original ANH mask - not yet - but the question whether it is THE screen used face mask can still be debated without fear of being sued. If you have an opinion and can back it up you should be free to present it without fear.

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 Post subject: Re: Wanna see where many Star Wars props (screen used) ends?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 9:25 am 
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I don't reckon the owner of this awesome price is going to waste his time chasing after voices on a forum to sue. If it was me I'd just be too busy staring at it to care. After all, I'm sure he's got the full story of how it went from the locked box into his possession
No need to stress, it's a hobby for enjoyment


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 Post subject: Re: Wanna see where many Star Wars props (screen used) ends?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 10:40 am 
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Got the book a few mins ago, it's great. One full page pic 3/4 view (right side) of the ANH Vader mask, plus tons of other stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Wanna see where many Star Wars props (screen used) ends?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 10:46 am 
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Mine is scheduled to arrive next tuesday. Can't wait. :thumbsup

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 Post subject: Re: Wanna see where many Star Wars props (screen used) ends?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:09 pm 
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No Humor Man wrote:
If you have an opinion and can back it up you should be free to present it without fear.


Well I wish that were the true, but in England and France the burden of proof is on the defendant to prove the statement made is true. So actually the plaintiff doesn't need expert testimony to support a claim that a false statement was made which he found injurious to him personally or to his business interests (in the U.S. he would). Without the kind of access to the mask I described, which of course the owner is under no obligation to provide, a statement of "this mask isn't from ANH" would be virtually impossible to prove. And the defendant has 10 days to collect those facts to prove the truth of his statement. I don't think that qualifying the statement with "in my opinion" would matter. So I stand by my admonishment to not assert that in a public forum, even if the intent is to play devil's advocate offering an opposing view to spark some discussion and debate among ourselves. We just don't know whether the owner would take exception to such a discussion. So I'll strive to participate with objectivity, from an analytical point of view, without drawing any conclusions.

If we start with the premise that this is an original ANH mask, there should be a checklist of items to confirm in multiple categories that it should meet. Physical dimensions would be one category. I don't know the actual dimensions and weight of the original mask or the material and method used to cast the mask, but I bet someone does. I would think that the TM/TD mask would provide a good reference for the dimensions we'd expect to see, including any appropriate correction based on what generation pull it was made from. At this point who can conclude from the video captures that we're not looking at a mask with all the surface features in the right place but that the overall size of the mask is not 10% larger or smaller than it should be, for example?

We've only seen the mask from a few viewpoints. Yes, it's spot-on in shape from those we've seen. What about from other angles and distances? Would it still match what we expect to see, or would it reveal any deviations from the expected shape when examined from other viewpoints? This is where the 3D model comparison to original 2D reference images could be useful. Or even done manually without a 3D model. NHM, I took heed of what you said regarding movie cameras and lenses. Some can produce a different image geometry than the actual scene (e.g. perspective control/tilt-shift, fisheye, curvelinear lenses). But as long as the lens is rectilinear (straight lines in the scene remain straight lines in the image), they should render usable images for comparison. I put this to test by trying to orient my DPDLX in angle and in distance to match screen captured images of the ESB helmet. I posted this some time ago on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF2y1zvf4f4 I was able to place the helmet to match each fairly well. Some of them highlighted how the shape of the DPDLX dome differed, and it showed how the DPDLX mask was slightly warped left-to-right, among other differences. Some viewpoints showed this more obviously that others. With a 3D model of the mask and a computer program to do the number crunching, it could find the range and axis rotation of the 3D model that provides the best match for each 2D reference image. Image overlays could be generated for a human to review to identify any significant differences.


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 Post subject: Re: Wanna see where many Star Wars props (screen used) ends?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:35 pm 
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Again. I doubt very much anyone here would try to defame the face mask in any way. The owner would have details on how it was acquired and what was told about it at the time of acquisition and a serious collector would have info on past owners and so forth. Neither of us here know any of that info, so there's nothing for us to question regarding authenticity. The owner has a ton-load of authentic pieces and I'm sure everything is well documented. No one here should fear lawsuits when making comments here, if they bring forth a valid and well documented argument, they should not fear to post it, and I find it very troublesome that you try to scare other users from speaking their minds, when we have never shied away from looking at things from every angle and dissecting things to the enth degree previously. If the evidence holds up, then all the crooked theories and denials will eventually die down, but anything we say here will in no way impact what they have, unless they were trying to pass it off as something that it is not... and that isn't even something they've done.

Neither the TD nor the TM will give any definitive proof regarding anything on the original mask. They can give approximates or educated estimates, but no definitives regarding shape - not even size. They offer no clue regarding weight, fiberglass texture or anything else. They may or may not have been made in the same way by the same people that made the originals - we don't know, so using them will not be definitive. You can document what details have been retained from the original, sure.. but it's very difficult to go the other way and use copies as an authentication guide.

I think it is highly unlikely this piece or any of their pieces will ever get 3D scanned, as screen used collectors very rarely do that, so we have to make do with pictures, and not have too lofty aspirations regarding how we'd like to authenticate our theories. Things can and do get verified through picture evidence alone. It's been done before and can be done again and so far the evidence speaks quite clearly about what this piece actually is. It is THE same helmet as photographed in the Elstree Props photo. Now we have to match it to other photos of the original to really nail down that what is claimed is correct.

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 Post subject: Re: Wanna see where many Star Wars props (screen used) ends?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:39 pm 
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Nobody here will get a 3D scan of this helmet nor to view and measure it in person. So we just have these few pics of it and i don't need to see more that this is the mask or at least one of the two Lindsay has mentioned.


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