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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:25 am 
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Location: Germany
SithLord wrote:
I wager I'll get my head bitten off for mentioning this, but there are a few problems with the TM ESB if you are considering it as the ultimate ANH...and I already have a comparison to illustrate, but if people are curious I can post it in the SL ANH thread. Otherwise I won't say what, because I anticipate that no one is interested in my opinion when it comes to the TM.... :hiding
Just keep in mind before you lash out at me, I permitted comparison of the TM against the SL in my own thread...


Let me put in my 2 cents here at this point ...

To avoid any "competition" (as that only spoils the fun with such things)
the TM owners agreed over to never say stuff like "the TM is the best".
I know in a few heated discussions that sentence slipped out a few times,
but never was it "advertised" that way, and you won't at least see neither
Tom or me do that, as that is stupid and childish in my view.
As DJ so nicely put it when he came here "my Penis is bigger than yours"

I believe the TM is one of the most accurate castings in fan-hands to
date, and so may the SL be (I assume as I have no chance to compare).

The TM is a "Hybrid" Helmet - ANH Facemask / ESB Dome
The SL is an ANH casting that might have had some cleanup.

Now ONLY talking about the Domes - I think that the TM is possibly the
closest one will ever get to an original ESB Dome, as it came from the
mold all the screenused Helmets came from, so there is no doubt in my
mind that the TM ESB Dome is absolutely accurate.
The SL Dome appears to be an authentic ANH Dome casting with a few
additional Dings and dents I believe, and in my opinion these most likely
are there due to the silicone mold not sitting correctly in the hardshell.
BOTH Domes seem to be the nicest examples for each of those two films.

Now talking about the TM/JRX ANH Dome - Yes - I reworked a TM casting
of the ESB Dome to ANH for the TM owners only, so they have a Dome
to put on their TM/ANH Masks - simple as that. I did the best I could with
working only from screencaps and pictures and no 3D refference to make
the Dome as much ANH looking as possible. I might have overlooked a
few details here and there, but it surely turned out nice enough to have
"the look" to it, and that's what matters at least to me - the look!
I never ever made a claim that this is the best this or that ... never ...
So give it a rest - the TM based ANH Dome is a "fanmade rework" ... it
does not claim to be anything else than beeing that and that it looks nice.

Talking about the TM ANH mask now, I can only say it's loaded with tiny
details ... and really ... does it matter to the look of the face that I had
to rebuild the TIPS on the tusk-tubes ??? Not really if anybody is honest.
I'm again not saying the TM ANH faceplate is perfect, but it is what it is,
and it certainly has the look, and again - the look is what matters to me.
The TM mask did have a few casting faults I had to repair, it did have
some damage to the tusks, and the teeth and eyelenses had been cut out.
But still it remains an authentic ANH mask casting.

I can't really comment on the SL mask, as all I had seen are the pics that
were posted. So I could only post my own observations about it, so to me
it also looks to be a very nice ANH mask casting, missing the tabs on top,
and having had a bit cleanup work done to it. Also it appears to have a
few slight casting faults like the "twisted" right tusk tube ... but hey ...
those are handmade castings - no casting is 100% perfect ... and still
the SL to me "looks the part".

The TM / ESB Mask seen in this thread is again a re-work done by me
for the TM-owners only, so they have an ESB mask to put their original
TM Domes on - again simple as that. Is it authentic ??? In a way, yes,
as I had months to study the Original TM mask and I could step by step
see what the LFL prop guys did to "change" the look from ANH to ESB ...
I cleaned all the stuff off carefully - Bondo, a bloodred wax, smudged
over resin and so on ... All I had to do when making the TM /ESB mask
was to put back on again (in a less rushy and a bit cleaner way) what
I had cleaned off the mask some months before ... and I did learn a lot
about the way those guys were working back then by doing that.

Once more I have written a "novel" here, and once more I hope that
people will take the time to carefully read it all. Once more I hope that
I have found the correct words so I'm not misunderstood again, and
once more I lost the thread now and can't remember all the other
things I wanted to say - LOL ...

The thing that won't go into my head is why this hobby has to be so
combative ... so secretive ... I mean ... we are not talking about
Industrial secrets with millions of dollars in it ... and yet we are all
keeping and hoarding our little precious "secrets", living in constant
"fear" ... yeah - this hobby makes many here live in fear .. that just
isn't right ... it should be fun ... I mean "why all this" when the joy and
fun is overcome by all the intrigues, attacks and all this BS ??? ...


......... ask yourself ... how much am I really enjoying this hobby?


Oh, and Thomas, nobody will tear your head off ...it's just the way you
sometimes "judge" stuff . You know that many people in this comunity
listen to you, and that fact donates you some kind of a responsibility ...
So when you "critique" other peoples stuff it is often not seen as your
personal opinion, but as "fact" written in stone, even though you might
not have intended that. You could maybe just try to be a little bit more
objective and fair which also includes just to be quiet in some cases out
of a certain respect for stuff other people own and love sometimes ...
It's one thing beeing on the search fot the "ultimate" ANH Helmet ... it's
another thing to "trash" everything down along the road, you know.
Maybe it's the way you often word things that they sound too "definitve"
and "fact-like", although they are only your own observations, beliefs,
opinions and theories ...


Last edited by JRX on Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:26 am, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:50 am 
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:rolleyes ....Kermit: It´s not easy being green.... :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:27 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:51 pm
Posts: 1328
Location: Geislingen, Germany
For me as a non expert and newbie it would be very exciting to see comparisons between a TM and a SL helmet. Its not because of another helmet war and a "my is the best helmet ever", but to find out the differences between such helmets and the different views of them. I love to see those pics and details but i have to say that i hate the heated discussions about also. There must be a way to show and compare this stuff in a peacefull und constructive wise. So i see where you are coming from Jesper and i absolutely share your opinion about "the look" and openess in this things. And thanks for your explanitions about the making of the different TM helmets....always a pleasure to read this.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:43 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:25 pm
Posts: 2837
Good post Jesper and it's good for others to have some more background knowledge as they may not know this.

Thomas, the Don Bies repaint is not a good comparison as that helmet is not what they think it is.

Back to the TM Vs SL I think it is unfortunate that it should transpire this way but it may be inevitible.

When it happens the staff will naturally be monitoring everything to keep it on track.

Now lets try not to take this thread off course.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:29 am 
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Posts: 10506
Location: Denmark
Mac, I must admit that I'm not overly pleased with your constant commenting on GINO. I know you are also talking generally about various types in forums, and even though you don't mention him by name, it is clear who you are talking about and since he's not here to defend himself I would appreciate if you would seize with those comments.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:47 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:46 pm
Posts: 5241
Location: San Jose, CA
NHM,

I don't know how else to phrase it without it coming across that way. So let me put it this way:

We need to focus on "Five of the Best" instead of "The Best of Five". The latter will cause the newfound environment we have to deteriorate very rapidly and it will be driven by egos instead of by kind sharing and fostering a unity based on something we're really fond of. It would become competition hell all over again.

Edit: you know... I think I said it better just now. Apologies to NHM and GINO.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:30 pm 
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Darth Karo wrote:


Thanks Doug I appreciate the compliment, I really do, but I'm not in competition with Gino or anyone else. The ONLY thing I try and compete against is the screen used look. That's it. If I can achieve that, then I'm thoroughly happy. As it stands now I'm not, but I'm working my way towards that. Also since Gino is no longer here and not able to comment, any comparison against his display is not on equal ground, if you know what I mean. His displays are one of the best I've seen, but again I appreciate your opinion.


Pete,
I've edited out what I said..
Your right and I didn't mean to sound as if it was a competion, because
it's not. Your Vader came out so good that I guess I got caught up in the
moment and since Gino's ANH Vader is the best example of a fan built that
I know of IMO, I went and made a statement without thinking.. Doh!!

Sorry about that :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:46 pm 
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Location: San Jose, CA
Doug,

I share your excitement about this. It's good for us all when the standard becomes exceeded, and we all get to learn what nuances and subtleties aid in that.

Don't forget your own contribution because without your codpieces, many of our Vaders would look like they're wearing thongs or big diapers!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:18 pm 
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Posts: 3112
JRX wrote:
I believe the TM is one of the most accurate castings in fan-hands to
date,


I agree....certainly the most accurate ESB casting one could have.

Quote:
The TM is a "Hybrid" Helmet - ANH Facemask / ESB Dome
The SL is an ANH casting that might have had some cleanup.


I know it might seem that I am only saying this, but the SL doesn't have any cleanup, for which I am thankful given the investment. I will admit when I saw the TM mask in person I was really amazed at the definition of some details even in relation to my TD mask. Some of them really stand out and it is a credit to your work on that mask to bring it back to its original state. The TD is painted so in places it's lost a small amount of that definition but even for being painted it holds up well against the TM mask. Which is better? I don't think in those terms because they are different and from different molds.

Quote:
Now ONLY talking about the Domes - I think that the TM is possibly the
closest one will ever get to an original ESB Dome, as it came from the
mold all the screenused Helmets came from, so there is no doubt in my
mind that the TM ESB Dome is absolutely accurate.


I completely agree insofar as what I've examined from photos I've seen of the dome and the dome was what got me interested in the TM helmet auction in the first place.

Quote:
The SL Dome appears to be an authentic ANH Dome casting with a few
additional Dings and dents I believe, and in my opinion these most likely
are there due to the silicone mold not sitting correctly in the hardshell.
BOTH Domes seem to be the nicest examples for each of those two films.


If you can point out those dings and dents I would like to see them. I could say the TM appears to be an authentic ESB dome casting, but I know it IS an ESB dome casting, just as the SL IS a casting from an ANH ILM mold.

Quote:
Now talking about the TM/JRX ANH Dome - Yes - I reworked a TM casting
of the ESB Dome to ANH for the TM owners only, so they have a Dome
to put on their TM/ANH Masks - simple as that. I did the best I could with
working only from screencaps and pictures and no 3D refference to make
the Dome as much ANH looking as possible. I might have overlooked a
few details here and there, but it surely turned out nice enough to have
"the look" to it, and that's what matters at least to me - the look!
I never ever made a claim that this is the best this or that ... never ...
So give it a rest - the TM based ANH Dome is a "fanmade rework" ... it
does not claim to be anything else than beeing that and that it looks nice.


Actually I wasn't referring to any surface details and I realize you did some work on it and the tubes on the mask and that really isn't what I meant because I know that was necessary.

Quote:
Talking about the TM ANH mask now, I can only say it's loaded with tiny
details ... and really ... does it matter to the look of the face that I had
to rebuild the TIPS on the tusk-tubes ??? Not really if anybody is honest.
I'm again not saying the TM ANH faceplate is perfect, but it is what it is,
and it certainly has the look, and again - the look is what matters to me.
The TM mask did have a few casting faults I had to repair, it did have
some damage to the tusks, and the teeth and eyelenses had been cut out.
But still it remains an authentic ANH mask casting.


When I got my TD ANH mask, I was curious how it differed from the screen mask, if it did, and it does, but in ways that tell me something more about the story of these masks. When I saw the TM, it was like yes this is really from the screen mask....ahhh but here it was sanded a bit and there it lost a notch or two (on the teeth to be precise)...but overall it has all the best details one could hope for and expect to see based on the original screen ANH mask. I'm not saying the TD ANH is perfect, and I'm not even saying the SL ANH is perfect...the masks I'm talking about now. Nor is the TM mask perfect. If people would like to understand why, I could go into more detail in a later thread when I've finished going over the TM/TD/SL.


Quote:
I can't really comment on the SL mask, as all I had seen are the pics that
were posted. So I could only post my own observations about it, so to me
it also looks to be a very nice ANH mask casting, missing the tabs on top,
and having had a bit cleanup work done to it. Also it appears to have a
few slight casting faults like the "twisted" right tusk tube ... but hey ...
those are handmade castings - no casting is 100% perfect ... and still
the SL to me "looks the part".


Pardon my question but I'm not sure what you mean or are seeing on the right tusk tube (do you mean Vader's right?). There's no casting fault there. Nor do I understand how you see that it's been cleaned up? Where do you see cleanup? The SL has details better resolved than on the DJ in quite a few areas (the inside groove of the right front flaring edge for example...does the TM have that? Do you even know what I am referring to...you can barely resolve it in the DJ HR photos). Remember the DJ is cleaned a bit and painted as well, while the SL is raw.


Quote:
The TM / ESB Mask seen in this thread is again a re-work done by me
for the TM-owners only, so they have an ESB mask to put their original
TM Domes on - again simple as that. Is it authentic ??? In a way, yes,
as I had months to study the Original TM mask and I could step by step
see what the LFL prop guys did to "change" the look from ANH to ESB ...
I cleaned all the stuff off carefully - Bondo, a bloodred wax, smudged
over resin and so on ... All I had to do when making the TM /ESB mask
was to put back on again (in a less rushy and a bit cleaner way) what
I had cleaned off the mask some months before ... and I did learn a lot
about the way those guys were working back then by doing that.


I think it's amazing what you did...and I think it's a completely authentic mask...to me it's an original.

Quote:
The thing that won't go into my head is why this hobby has to be so
combative ... so secretive ... I mean ... we are not talking about
Industrial secrets with millions of dollars in it ... and yet we are all
keeping and hoarding our little precious "secrets", living in constant
"fear" ... yeah - this hobby makes many here live in fear .. that just
isn't right ... it should be fun ... I mean "why all this" when the joy and
fun is overcome by all the intrigues, attacks and all this BS ??? ...


How much did TM pay for his helmet. How much did I pay for mine and for my TD ANH. There's always the possibility someone will use the information or the castings themselves for personal profit. And that makes it less fun and a concern for me because it's my investment. But I'll still show what I have...and hope it makes for interesting discussion.

Quote:
Oh, and Thomas, nobody will tear your head off ...it's just the way you
sometimes "judge" stuff . You know that many people in this comunity
listen to you, and that fact donates you some kind of a responsibility ...
So when you "critique" other peoples stuff it is often not seen as your
personal opinion, but as "fact" written in stone, even though you might
not have intended that. You could maybe just try to be a little bit more
objective and fair which also includes just to be quiet in some cases out
of a certain respect for stuff other people own and love sometimes ...
It's one thing beeing on the search fot the "ultimate" ANH Helmet ... it's
another thing to "trash" everything down along the road, you know.
Maybe it's the way you often word things that they sound too "definitve"
and "fact-like", although they are only your own observations, beliefs,
opinions and theories ...


Fair enough. I'll take your advice to heart. I certainly don't mean to trash anything. The TM is in great hands and is a great helmet...an amazing find.
Anything I might mention about it is really very minor but those little things I find interesting. Maybe sometime I'll let someone here who knows the TM choose a mutually agree-upon and vague enough detail on its surface and I will show that detail side by side with the same detail on the TD and SL. Perhaps in another thread...but I'm still going over a lot of questions I have in my mind about these interesting castings...we have a lot of time to talk about Vader helmets :lol

And I apologize for the OT....


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:42 pm 
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Darth Karo wrote:
I was aksed if I could post another TM ANH pic so I thought I'd post this one.

Image


This was the photo I was planning to use for the comparison....


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:09 pm 
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CSMacLaren wrote:
Doug,

I share your excitement about this. It's good for us all when the standard becomes exceeded, and we all get to learn what nuances and subtleties aid in that.

Don't forget your own contribution because without your codpieces, many of our Vaders would look like they're wearing thongs or big diapers!


:lol :lol :lol :lol

Thanks Mac I guess your right, But I heard the Diaper look is coming back
in style:D


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:51 am 
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Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:26 am
Posts: 1239
SithLord wrote:
Darth Karo wrote:
I was aksed if I could post another TM ANH pic so I thought I'd post this one.

Image


This was the photo I was planning to use for the comparison....


That's fine Thomas, go right ahead.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:12 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:46 pm
Posts: 5241
Location: San Jose, CA
artisanprops wrote:
Thanks Mac I guess your right, But I heard the Diaper look is coming back in style:D


So, contrary to popular fan myth perpetuated by Lucas, "Darth Vader" does not really mean "Dark Father" but rather "Diaper Vapor". :toothy


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:32 am 
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Posts: 1060
Darth Vader is the combination of the words Dark Death Invader.

I read this somewhere when I was a lad in the late seventies or early eighties.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:51 am 
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Posts: 14
Fatherless One wrote:
Darth Vader is the combination of the words Dark Death Invader.

I read this somewhere when I was a lad in the late seventies or early eighties.


vader is "father" in german. a play with this and "darth" translates to "dark father."

i really, really love this helmet. any chance i can get finished one?


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