Darth Karo wrote:
Apparently you don't. All YOUR quotes. It's very clear what you tried to imply. Your statements about the original mouth wall being visible was an obvious attempt at trying to prove that it was somehow altered during the casting process of the original when, in fact, Brian had already told you that the tubes were sculpted to the end like seen in the original, yet you still attempted to mix fact with fiction to get the answer you wanted. And yes, you have implied plenty of times that it is was possibly a production helmet. I've stated before that you have a real nice faceplate, but you've been a very naughty boy misquoting Brian all this time.
Good, I'll address these quotes. And I knew Brian sculpted them that way. I said they were CUT BACK.
SithLord wrote:
I can say that the cut there is not what one would see if one were cutting fiberglass...and on the side of the mouth there is an addition edge...a vertical edge so it's not just the mouth triangle side coming down to the bottom...it's the original sculpture of the mouth revealed there...before the tubes would have been added and they were added just as roles of clay.
So....what is it then? Why are there edges on the sides of the mouth where the tubes were cut back? You can't cut fiberglass that way. Maybe Brian can explain that. He's seen the mask. Nothing changes what I said about that.
SithLord wrote:
And yes I have measurements of an ANH mask from 1976 that is larger than the DJ ANH and larger than the TM.
Yes, the TD ANH.
SithLord wrote:
Mine is from ANH.
Yes, according to the account of the previous owner who obtained it from a prop lady who worked on ANH. She also worked on an earlier film that Stuart Freeborn worked on. At this point given the research I've done on the SL ANH do I know for sure if the TD is from the ANH production? No. But I have nothing yet to rule that out definitively so I'm trying to determine when it could have been made. Ok?
SithLord wrote:
This mask's "father" has all the details and even more than a VP or TM, because it's from ANH.
That was in reference to showing a finished casting of the TD before the TD ANH thread....right? And that statement still stands and is easy to illustrate because the TD is ANH, not ESB and it's not cleaned up like the VP. Saying it's from ANH means it is an ANH mask...if I meant it was from the ANH production I would have said so.
SithLord wrote:
Let's just say that mine has ANH details that are missing on the DJ ANH, TM and VP. It has everything that should be on an ANH because it IS ANH, and yes Brian confirmed this.
Yes, again, nothing has changed. Brian agreed it is an ANH mask, not ESB or ROTJ. Of course he couldn't say whether it was from the production or not because he didn't do the fiberglass work so that was an open question.
But unless he can account for every casting made in the production, who knows whether this came from ANH or not...but the account of the previous owner suggests that. It could be false, but that's why I spent four years studying the mask and I stated my ideas clearly about it.
SithLord wrote:
The tubes on mine were cut back, simple. You dont' even notice that where they are cut back you can see the side of the original mouth as it was sculpted by Brian Muir. Ever see that before? :rolleyes
Maybe you should have a close look at HD caps of the Tantive IV scene when Vader chokes the rebel soldier and look at the left side tubes and get back to me. I'm not sure why I have to explain everything to you.
Well? Is it the original side of the mouth? The tubes were added after the mouth was sculpted I assume? How could they be added before? And as for the second part, I showed where there was a dark ring on the side of the tubes on the screen mask...in the same place as were the tubes on the TD ANH were cut back. I never said the mask was sculpted with shorter tubes, only that they could have been cut back both on the TD and on the screen mask because presumably both would have longer...yes longer...tubes and thicker as well then what is on the original sculpture. Now Brian says they look exactly as he sculpted them. But then why the differences in length onscreen? They could then have been changed in the fiberglass casting and that's what I was showing, not that they were sculpted short to begin with which is what you assumed from my statement. Let us dissect this statement since English seems a problem here:
You dont' even notice that where they are cut back you can see the side of the original mouth as it was sculpted by Brian Muir. Ever see that before? ....you can see the side of the original mouth as THE SIDE OF THE ORIGINAL MOUTH WAS SCULPTED by Brian Muir....
NOT THE TUBES SCULPTED THAT WAY.
I don't see how someone can get that from this sentence that the tubes were sculpted shorter. IT refers to the side of the original mouth.
SithLord wrote:
The tabs are as sharp as the TM tabs and identical in size to real ones. Keep in mind this mask was used with a dome and there is wear on the top indicating that. I could strip the paint but it seems to be original paint. The photos are so fuzzy that it's really hard to appreciate the sharpness. The neck on mine is exactly as the original...you dont have to put an extension on it as with the TM and it's not cut back like the VP. Not only that, the neck fits the GH master armor like a glove, and I mean perfectly aligned with it. Nothing else out there I know does. That's how big this thing is. You can simply compare the eyebrows for example...yes they are sharp on the VP and TM but they are not supposed to be...they are modified or altered slightly from the original. Furthermore the undercut on mine exceeds anything else out there and the rear curvature matches the Paul Allen mask perfectly (except mine has more material in the rear). Anyway I could go on but you guys have your favorites and I have mine.
NOTHING CHANGED HERE. So what's your point?
SithLord wrote:
Well during the refinement of the ANH mask, John Barry the production designer instructed Brian Muir to alter the ends of the tusk tubes. The tube ends on mine are slightly wider but the same height. Notice as well on the screen mask that there is evidence of a demarkation where the edge of the tubes toward the ends becomes irregular. I said to look at the left tube end of an HD screencap. Clearly no one did that. There's what looks like a white line right were the cut point is on mine. I'm not sure if mine was cut in the casting but it seems to have been molded from something that had it's tubes cut back. The cut marks suggest it was clay, not fiberglass and it could not have been cut off from a fiberglass casting because what remains is the original side of the mouth in how it was sculpted. Brian Muir took long strips of clay and rolled them round and then stuck them on the side of the face to make the tusk tubes. So if you took away that piece of clay you would see the side of the mouth. That's just one small thing I could point out among many things.
So? Where do I state here that the TUBES WERE SCULPTED WITH CUT ENDS? And I state clearly that I AM NOT SURE...and....IT SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN MOLDED....the cut marks SUGGEST IT WAS CLAY.....
So where ARE MY STATEMENTS OF FACT HERE???????
SithLord wrote:
You see, you guys haven't really been following the hints I've tried to give you.
Nor to you follow them to this day.
SithLord wrote:
The screen mask did not come out of the original mold. And if you knew how the helmets were made it's obvious why. There was a secondary mold for the screen mask but the master, yes, would not have had tabs. The cast tabs on this mask are the one thing that doesn't make sense because the type of mold this mask came out of is kind of unique.
And? I just held out telling you about the secondary mold made from the plaster master that Brian worked on. But that's what I meant...that the original screen mask DID NOT COME FROM THE MOLD OF THE CLAY SCULPTURE....which you guys forever thought was the original mold. Sorry, wrong. And by unique I meant a two-part mold, front and rear halves which I knew about long before I met Brian because of the attachment on the top where a male part would clip onto implying a front and rear half were tested at one point. Also the seam on my mask indicated that it came from a front and rear half, not from a single fiberglass mask.
SithLord wrote:
This mask obviously wasn't used onscreen. And both Muir and I know that it didn't come out of the original mold, but then again neither did the screen mask. But after Brian did the sculpting it all went to the plasterers and so it was out of his hands. It could have been a test helmet since it has original black paint. But Brian does think it is original.
And? Nothing has changed. The screen mask didn't come out of the mold used to make the plaster master. Sure the odds are against my mask coming out of the secondary mold because Brian said there couldn't be tabs on the plaster master. I knew that a long time ago. But the paint is there. And as I said before that Brian thought it's original but not from the original mold. By that I knew he meant it was authentic, but he couldn't tell me if it was from the production or not. There's still nothing yet that rules that out in my mind. So I'm still looking for something to rule out the claims of the previous owner. Ok?
SithLord wrote:
The question is whether it was used in the production or not. I have evidence that it might have been.
Yes, the size for one thing, the paint flaws for another (like the chin drip being in the paint not in the casting), the foam, the seam, the undercut in the rear, etc. It's not proof, but it's evidence. And I said MIGHT HAVE BEEN. NOT IS. MIGHT HAVE BEEN IS NOT A STATEMENT OF FACT. HELLO!!!!!
SithLord wrote:
Maybe you should compare an ANH from 1976 with an ESB from 1979 side-by-side and get back to me....
Yes, in other words if you are going to say something like the TM ESB is identical to the original ANH then maybe you should do that....as I've done with the TD. There's no question the TD is VERY old. When I got it, it smelled inside like something from the Smithsonian institution...a really bad old smell inside. You want science? As soon as I can get the paint dated I will. Until then I'm proceeding under the believe that it is from that period. Could it be from 1979? Sure but then it should be like the TM and it's not. And the TM is from 1979. Could it be later on? Sure but then it would be smaller and it's not.
So again, quote me where I state as fact that the tubes were sculpted short, that I misquoted Brian, and that I was claiming as fact that my mask was an original ANH mask. It could be from the production, but that's what I've been trying to find out and I've made that clear. It's an ANH mask....is it an ORIGINAL ANH mask? That's what I've been trying to find out. Where does it sit generationally in relation to the screen mask, that's been my question all along. Maybe it was a test fitting mask...who knows? Is it the same generationally as the screen ANH mask? Maybe not....but then why are the tabs different?
