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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:25 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:29 pm
Posts: 211
Always cool and exciting to see a new authentic helmet enter the fray and if I read correctly, willing to make a run ! Exceptionally cool .
The thing Im curious about though is with this being a 1st gen from the master and from the same UK mold as the TM, the cheek appears to be C free even though alot of the other details it shares with the TM is apparent like the minute paint strokes on the sides and the scars on the neck. Could be the top coat but if it was, it would conceal other marks as well I guess. In any case, looking forward to see whats underneath. Thanks for sharing !


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 2:33 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:56 am
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I dont recall any one saying this came from the same mold as the TM. theoretically the TM's face is derived from molds made from the ANH face mask, and from what I understand the ROTJ helmets were made with ESB gen molds. So wouldn't that suggest that this ( as we can see in the pictures) will be missing some details present in the TM face. Just like the owner suggested the dome has been modified for RTOJ, the face should show such modifications as well.

Just my opinion


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 2:37 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:51 pm
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Location: Geislingen, Germany
I agree in all points


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:49 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:16 am
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I have been out of the loop for a very long time, so correct me if my history is wrong. But wasn't there a concensus that the base ESB and ROTJ masks came from the same UK mold and therefore the same? Their visual differences were later realised by the way the final finishing procedure was done by the prop guys.

Or was there a completely new ROTJ mask mould made later? I know Brian Muir has a ROTJ that was production made too.. however I didn't know about there being a new mask mould for ROTJ. I thought maybe the dome was remoulded for ROTJ.

Eitherway it's very intetesting. Sorry to go off topic.


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:22 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:46 pm
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illbethere1 wrote:
Always cool and exciting to see a new authentic helmet enter the fray and if I read correctly, willing to make a run ! Exceptionally cool .
The thing Im curious about though is with this being a 1st gen from the master and from the same UK mold as the TM, the cheek appears to be C free even though alot of the other details it shares with the TM is apparent like the minute paint strokes on the sides and the scars on the neck. Could be the top coat but if it was, it would conceal other marks as well I guess. In any case, looking forward to see whats underneath. Thanks for sharing !


Ok I'm not up to speed on the C scar at the moment but have a look at this cropped photo. Is this a trick of the light ?
I can't do any further analysis at the moment as I am on vacation/holiday but it's food for thought.


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:11 pm 
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Location: Geislingen, Germany
At least the mask has details on its cheek and is not totally clean.


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:12 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:24 pm
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Location: Berlin
The so-called UK mold represents the screen used ANH faceplate after it came back from the US to the UK. I have personally seen the traces of a molding process on the screen used faceplate in the Grunberg collection in France. In preparation for the molding, the upper chin vent grill has been backed with plasticine from behind, and the lower chin vent was filled out with plasticine from the front. Typical signs of the castings from the UK mold are the cast tabs, filled-in upper and lower chin vents and paint separation lines, which are also present on the screen used faceplate in France. It's not 100% clear if the plasticine or clay "neck extension" (which is actually not a real neck extension, but an added piece of plasticine in order to maintain the neck line of the original during the molding process) has been added to the screen used original ANH, or on a casting from the master UK mold, which was then molded again to produce a "B" - mold.

I am really curious to see what's under the paint of the GS Vader casting. It looks like the black paint has been applied hastily and includes many small spots such as dirt or dust particles.


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:19 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:29 pm
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Thanks for that extra shot. Its nice to see the worm and dot in the crease still intact ! THE VP and TM has this innate trait as well but from what I read unfortunately, that anomaly was cleaned up on TM casts. SL will never "mess" with his TD which is also a UK cast therefor in limbo. As far as the C on the cheek, a layer or 2 of gunk which depending on what was used like thick primer could indeed conceal it as was the case with the TM from what was read. But from your shot, the C should be does appear to have a very faint outline defining the shape and placement but its all conjecture on my part until the strip..... But I'm optimistic. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:02 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:12 am
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Great thanks, GS ROTJ it is :thumbsup


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:18 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:12 pm
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The circle is complete: SL ANH, TM ESB and GS ROTJ :thumbsup


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:18 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:51 pm
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Location: Milwaukee, WI
Fatherless One wrote:
The circle is complete: SL ANH, TM ESB and GS ROTJ :thumbsup



:drool :drool :drool


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:26 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:12 am
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vadermania wrote:
The so-called UK mold represents the screen used ANH faceplate after it came back from the US to the UK. I have personally seen the traces of a molding process on the screen used faceplate in the Grunberg collection in France. In preparation for the molding, the upper chin vent grill has been backed with plasticine from behind, and the lower chin vent was filled out with plasticine from the front. Typical signs of the castings from the UK mold are the cast tabs, filled-in upper and lower chin vents and paint separation lines, which are also present on the screen used faceplate in France. It's not 100% clear if the plasticine or clay "neck extension" (which is actually not a real neck extension, but an added piece of plasticine in order to maintain the neck line of the original during the molding process) has been added to the screen used original ANH, or on a casting from the master UK mold, which was then molded again to produce a "B" - mold.

I am really curious to see what's under the paint of the GS Vader casting. It looks like the black paint has been applied hastily and includes many small spots such as dirt or dust particles.



Thanks, Tom, agreed. I'm of the opinion and lean more toward the "B" mold idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:35 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:12 am
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fon wrote:
I have been out of the loop for a very long time, so correct me if my history is wrong. But wasn't there a concensus that the base ESB and ROTJ masks came from the same UK mold and therefore the same? Their visual differences were later realised by the way the final finishing procedure was done by the prop guys.

Or was there a completely new ROTJ mask mould made later? I know Brian Muir has a ROTJ that was production made too.. however I didn't know about there being a new mask mould for ROTJ. I thought maybe the dome was remoulded for ROTJ.

Eitherway it's very intetesting. Sorry to go off topic.



Welcome back to the loop, Fon. :salut

No the ROTJ masks come from a mold made of some kind of template mask that resembles the base mask for the ESB but is probably at least a couple more generations down. For example the template for the ROTJ masks could have been a casting taken from an ESB mold which is why this ROTJ looks generally like a TM ESB mask. But I can tell size-wise it is proportionally smaller (ROTJ masks are smaller proportional to the dome than ESB or ANH). So there would have been a ROTJ-specific production mold and this helmet by all accounts appears to be from that mold, although of course I'm sure the investigation continues. And this would not have come either from the mold the TM ESB came from because the TM ESB is a very specific ESB-derived casting related to the other UK-mask type castings but itself is unique in the mask in the eyebrows while its dome is from the original ESB production mold. The VP and the ROTJ masks do not share the same kind of eyebrows the TM has. But yes they all are derivative of the same UK lineage, but that doesn't mean they all came from the same UK mold, just that there was a common ancestor from that mold that gave rise to that lineage...maybe a few pulls from that mold led to different lines but the idea is the same.


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:28 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:16 am
Posts: 99
Thanks Thomas for filling me in. Interesting how we learn so much more in just a few years.

I see that the TM dome is referred to as being from the ESB production mould but yet the mask is not (altered copy). I'm a bit confused by this, didn't they both come directly from the ESB production as a complete helmet?

Again sorry to hijack the thread. Mods please delete my post if necessary.


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 Post subject: Re: Vader Helmet owend by original crew member
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:04 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:12 pm
Posts: 1063
This is also a high possibility:

Any face masks cast with tabs intact were taken from a mould of the actual ANH face, masks cast without tabs were made from a different mould.

I've compared the tabs on this new mask with the TM's tabs and they are identical, the screw head positions are the same, the slot where the original head strap was is also identical.

Sorry for the OT.


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