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 Post subject: Re: Original Jedi Stormtrooper Helmet...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:00 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:42 pm
Posts: 502
Quote:
It should go without saying that even though an entity, any entity for that matter, issues a COA, the item should still be scrutinized. Similarly, any claims by an individual should also be scrutinized. As with any hobby where large sums of money are paid by individuals for rare items, there will be attempts at fakes and forgeries. It happens in every mature collecting marketplace, which is why I defend Gino for blowing the whistle. I don't think his claims were baseless. If we were to look at the circumstances present, without necessarily filtering them through the terse feelings for Gino, it was a very disturbing chain of events:
1) Joe owns production used ROTJ helmet
2) Joe has molds made in the hopes of producing replicas (which apparently doesn't happen); this is not openly known by most members
3) Joe sells original helmet
4) Months later, Joe scores another ROTJ helmet, production used although not finished


But it was utterly baseless, he added 2 and 2 and made 5. He provided no photographic evidence, that is because the helmets are very different and there is none.

I do find it odd that you defend him 'blowing the whistle', I would define his blowing the whistle as creating wild claims with zero factual evidence. He did this because he was jealous of me owning a second original and secondly because I refused to do a run with him. He has a bizarre obsession with having to own the 'only' moulds from originals, some kind of weird superiority complex. :rolleyes

I question your assertion that PsoL should be questioned over forum members with ZERO experience of originals, they are in possession of multiple original stormtrooper helmets and spent months researching this helmet.

This thread has run its course now, the helmet is original and I have rock solid provenance, a full back story and a PsoL COA. If any 'armchair experts' disagree, they are welcome to their opinion.

Here's pic of my new helmet, the PsoL location helmet, and my old background studio helmet and the MG/DM/GH or whoever owns it now helmet.

Image
Image
Image
Image

Not perfect angles but it is obvious the new helmet is nothing like the old background helmet. The ears are from totally different moulds, the same moulds as the location helmet.

Joe


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 Post subject: Re: Original Jedi Stormtrooper Helmet...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:08 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:03 pm
Posts: 657
Location: UK
imo if anyone's looking to suggest that an item is a fake should AT THE VERY LEAST provide clear evidence, photo's etc.

Cheers

Jez


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 Post subject: Re: Original Jedi Stormtrooper Helmet...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:21 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:48 pm
Posts: 251
BingoBongo275 wrote:
imo if anyone's looking to suggest that an item is a fake should AT THE VERY LEAST provide clear evidence, photo's etc.

Cheers

Jez

Doesn't that knife cut both ways though, Jez?


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 Post subject: Re: Original Jedi Stormtrooper Helmet...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:34 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:42 pm
Posts: 502
Qui

All you seem to do is argue in every thread, can you actually add any constructive comments? Have you looked at the photos? :rolleyes

Joe


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 Post subject: Re: Original Jedi Stormtrooper Helmet...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:42 pm 
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Location: Denmark
Qui-Gonzalez wrote:
BingoBongo275 wrote:
imo if anyone's looking to suggest that an item is a fake should AT THE VERY LEAST provide clear evidence, photo's etc.
Cheers
Jez

Doesn't that knife cut both ways though, Jez?

Sure. But there's a difference.

It's very risky coming out saying something is original (if it isn't). Your whole reputation relies on the accuracy of your statement. You'll commit public suicide if you tried to pass off a replica as an original in this hobby.

On the other side, it takes absolutely NOTHING to call something a fake. Without proof, you can tarnish an item and you tarnish the person and anyone who vouches for it's authenticity. Even if proof of authenticity is later shown, there will always be that lingering doubt spawned in people's minds.


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 Post subject: Re: Original Jedi Stormtrooper Helmet...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:43 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:42 pm
Posts: 502
Qui-Gonzalez wrote:
BingoBongo275 wrote:
imo if anyone's looking to suggest that an item is a fake should AT THE VERY LEAST provide clear evidence, photo's etc.

Cheers

Jez

Doesn't that knife cut both ways though, Jez?


No it doesn't, when the item in question is confirmed as original by experts, which is certainly not you!


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 Post subject: Re: Original Jedi Stormtrooper Helmet...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:51 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:03 pm
Posts: 657
Location: UK
Qui-Gonzalez wrote:
BingoBongo275 wrote:
imo if anyone's looking to suggest that an item is a fake should AT THE VERY LEAST provide clear evidence, photo's etc.

Cheers

Jez

Doesn't that knife cut both ways though, Jez?


Yes it does, and I do agree with you.

Although to be fair, Joe did post up photos of his helmet.

Cheers

Jez


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 Post subject: Re: Original Jedi Stormtrooper Helmet...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:05 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:12 pm
Posts: 50
Location: Tampa FL
Joe, I don't think Gino's suspicions were utterly baseless. He was obviously making his argument on the basis of the chain of events, not because of any physical discrepancies. That was pretty obvious from the beginning. I honsestly don't think he was bashing your helmet simply because it was you or he was jealous of your acquisition. I'm defending the question, not the method of the proposal.

Also, there was no mention in your initial show off post about there being a COA from Propstore. You basically said you sourced it from a relative of someone who worked on Jedi; there was no mention of Propstore and unfortunately, knowing that you had molded your other original, he pounced. There is no PCPA (Prop Consumer Protection Agency) for prop collectors. It's buyer beware and I would rather have questions raised about provenance and legitimacy rather than have a 'yes men' mentality of "he said it was authentic so it must be". While no longer viable, Elstree Prop's past comes to mind here - "it's authentic because I got it/have a COA from Elstree Prop". Ultimately, it's in the best interest of the hobby to objectively question items when something seems amiss.

Further, my comment about questioning entities and individuals was not directed at PSOL in any way. To be honest, their COA holds a ton of weight with me and I have purchased multiple items from them in the past. As with any collector market though, especially where the intrinsic value of the items is minimal, there will always be people trying to pass off fakes as real. Please don't misunderstand my overall point about the hobby as a question about PSOL's reputation. Again, if you would have stated having a COA from them in the beginning, this all would probably have been a dead issue and your show off thread would have continued as you had wished.

It's obvious you have a history with Gino and not a very good one at that. That said, I really don't understand why you are so bitter towards him over the situation at this point. He called you and your helmet out, the verbal sparring and posturing began, he agreed in the end that it was probably production made and apologized, and finally you went to his website to actually further provide proof and legitimize it, which I thought said a lot about you and was ultimately in the hobby's best interest. It's too bad that ended so abruptly.

Again, I'm happy that we can all put this behind us and I congratulate Joe on his awesome helmet.


Last edited by bobasfett on Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Original Jedi Stormtrooper Helmet...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:46 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:42 pm
Posts: 502
Thank you.

Joe


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 Post subject: Re: Original Jedi Stormtrooper Helmet...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:04 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:48 pm
Posts: 251
JoeR wrote:
Qui

All you seem to do is argue in every thread, can you actually add any constructive comments? Have you looked at the photos? :rolleyes

Joe

Sorry Joe, I am not arguing with anyone. I am asking questions. As far as we all know, Jez has still not said definitively one way or the other if this does have provenance. To me, the replica mic tips, lack of decals and paint on the frown don't exactly make this a screen used piece. The difference between you and I is I do difer to the experts in these situations, and the only one I know here with nothing to gain either way is Jez.

As far as I know about Jez, he is the go-to guy when it comes to helmets. So, I thoroughly respect his opinion.

You are still looking for acceptance regarding your helmet, so I will still ask the questions. Sorry if this offends you, but we are all here after the same information. I've said it before, as long as you do not offer it up for sale, you can call it "The Helmet that Lucas paraded around in" for all I care. You are the one that has to be happy with your piece, but when YOU offer it up for others to scrutinize, expect people to question it.

Edit: One other point. I've already admitted that I was envious of your ability to find such items. Why not point that anger of yours elsewhere? I've congratulated you on a good find, but I am NOT the only one who still has questions about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Original Jedi Stormtrooper Helmet...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:37 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:03 pm
Posts: 657
Location: UK
Hi Qui (!)

As per my post on the RPF (thread now locked and dropped), the only reason for my reticence in coming out and positively acknowledging the helmet is due to me questioning my own knowledge in this very specific area, and the limited amount of evidence to go on at the time.

I handled the helmet last weekend and from what I could tell it had a number of the tells I expected it to have that are typically present on an original RotJ helmet - in addition it failed to have the tells of a replica so (as a double negative) that also substantiated its provenance in my opinion.

However my handling of other original RotJ trooper buckets is limited and in these circumstances am very wary of unequivocal statements. With the ANH/ESB AT-AT I was 100% sure, same with the various Troopers and TIE’s. But this is a bit more difficult - especially without the tells we would have expected had it had decals and paint.

Thanks for the vote of confidence :)

Cheers

Jez


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 Post subject: Re: Original Jedi Stormtrooper Helmet...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:54 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:46 pm
Posts: 5241
Location: San Jose, CA
JoeR wrote:
This is pointless, that short little freak Sabatino made totally baseless claims with no evidence and yet I handled it badly. I am very confused as to how I handled being unjustly slagged off badly,when I had a certified original. Gino apologising for his baseless BS suddenly made it legitimate, what a joke :rolleyes


Gino apologized? Wow. When did this happen and what did he say?


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 Post subject: Re: Original Jedi Stormtrooper Helmet...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:28 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:12 pm
Posts: 50
Location: Tampa FL
Mac,
It was in the RPF thread. He apologized but also defended his reasons for the stink, which is to be expected. It's hard for people like Gino to admit when they are wrong, but he was a man about and stepped up.

I had hoped when the thread started on his forum that we would all learn a bunch. I was not really keen on letting the tells out, but I thought it would be constructive nonetheless. So much for that......


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 Post subject: Re: Original Jedi Stormtrooper Helmet...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:26 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:14 pm
Posts: 247
Location: Edinburgh Scotland
Hi Joe,

I for one am happy you have a new lid and grateful that we got to see some pics. It is always nice when something from the original trilogy turns up as it is just one less cinema icon that hasn't been lost.

It would have been nice to have seen more and discussed it a bit more but things got a bit weird from the very start of your show off thread on The RPF.

It is your prerogative to do whatever you want with your lid and share what information you want.

Cheers Chris


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