Well, the fact that the scratches on the lenses of the Elstree Props helmet is shown to also be in the Tantive screen captures done by SithLord shows that it's the same lenses. So it is likely they weren't changed at all from pre-production to, in fact, today - or definitely still in the mask by RotJ.


That mask could be the one that DJ saw having the lenses taken out of it, as it doesn't appear to have lenses. Remember, there were at least 3 helmets made for ANH... where the other helmets are is still a big unknown. And we know that by the time of ESB promotion that additional tour suits were made - could be one of those stolen!?

Just speculating.


The strongest evidence, imo, is the Warwick Davis picture... pretty much the rest is just conjecture and plausible connections, based on look, paintjob and details that can be glimpsed, but not clearly enough to rule out coincidence and grain in the pictures. The one that seems to be slightly outside the theory is the Hoth mask... there's just something about it that seems different, but still interesting, especially because of the Kenny Baker picture.

And yes... it's a sad theory and I really wish it isn't true. But considering they re-used ANH stormtrooper helmets re-painted in ESB... just makes it seem more likely

Kermit was in exclusive posession of the ANH costume from May '77 until at least May of '80 when he got some ESB replacement components; and according to him noone ever did any maintenance/replacements on the hard parts (except himself when he had to glue parts back on). Regarding the shipping heist, it just didn't happen. Kermit hand-delivered the costume to an LFL office in L.A.

What about the story from John Naulin that it was him who was responsible for the maintenance of the original suit during the early Eller tours?

Well, according to Kermit, he knew JN, and JN did show up to an appearance or two in the L.A. area, but JN was not involved in an official capacity, especially regarding any maintenance on the suit.

I can tell you what happened to one of the three original ANH helmets. See below:



But that opinion is purely based on the fact that this was an ANH helmet, and had about the correct size for an original.

Yea, definitely ANH style helmet, but not a screen helmet. Likely from the same LFL mold as the SL ANH.

I hate to make an issue about this, but as of late I have little patience here. I mentioned quite a while ago here that I matched the grill mesh on the mouth of the Elstree mask to the screen ANH mask as seen in the Corbis photos, so I'm not sure why you say it's something you had to determine? That was when the question came up as to whether the ESB movie poster helmet is original or not, and I found the grills were different. I showed on the RPF lens thread that the lenses on the Tantive IV helmet were identical to the ones on the screen mask at the time of the ANH tour and on the Elstree mask which is the original mask based on the grills and then I found as well based on the lenses. That took a lot of time to examine using as high resolution images as I could find and was willing to show. That also supported evidence of a possible film on the inside of the lenses.

My point here is, if you want to present original theories, use your own reference and your own research. The reason I am miffed about this is that I get taken to task for showing a high resolution detail, and you get applauded for showing fuzzy images and using other people's research...and you also find it easy to criticize my knowledge when you turn around and use it for your own theories.

And incidentally, the horizontal scratch which is a surface feature on the right lens of the VP seems to sit higher on the lens than on the original (although it could be another dimple in the lens coating) and also seems horizontally translated with respect to the original.



Another view...



And there is more adhesive on the VP eye edges...the adhesive might have been added later on to a copy of the screen mask because it seems to overlay two ridges you pointed out originally in your VP vs Elstree comp, but even those ridges don't seem to line up. So I still have my doubts about the VP lenses.



I don't see the relationship of details you are claiming in the three-way comparison of the Elstree/VP/ROTJ. Perhaps the side of the mouth triangle detail but that can be accounted for based on copies of the ANH mask (even though it's not on any of them)....that doesn't discount your theory about the Kenny Baker helmet but there's nothing about that helmet that suggests it is the original ANH, nor that ROTJ mask.

Pretty childish response Thomas.



I said it before you did. Come on, are we in a school playground?

NHM is simply trying to add to the group knowledge with a theory.I can't stand this petty grabby, Gino attitude to information, it is pathetic!

Joe

Thomas, I honestly don't understand your response. I credited you for the work done on showing that the Elstree Props picture showed the real helmet. Where did I state that it was something *I* had to determine for myself?

I wasn't sure if I should post my theory, but after having searched for better photos and realizing this was the best I could get I decided to post. I do not tell anyone that this is the truth or fact, nor do I not listen to critique regarding the theory. I do however let people make up their own mind. I posted and with these pictures - however crappy they may be - as there was nothing better to be found at this time. You make comps with helmets that are angled different and make claims about them that can be questioned simply because the comparisons are not at the same angle - such as the VP and Elstree Props pictures. That's where we do things differently.

I agree that my theory may be flawed and even untrue, but I presented it anyway for people to judge for themselves whether they saw what I saw in the material presented - as good as I could find it. Don't think I've heard the theory presented that the original ANH was turned into an ESB - if it has been presented and shown, then I'm sorry for not remembering or knowing and thus forgetting to give credit where credit was due.

But if you're this cross over this, then I can easily just remove the whole thing. No worries.

NHM, I think your theory it is quite possible. It's something I assumed for a long time, myself. Currently I am not convinced either way, but it was an interesting post you made.

Thanks.

I think it's a very interesting theory and something to be examined in more detail. No, sorry, I didn't ask that it be removed. It wasn't about the theory...I know you presented it in an unbiased and objective manner. I'll leave it for PM because it is a personal matter...sorry. We all have our bad moods and lately I've had a doosie.

It would be fantastic if we could examine this theory in more detail together as one team.