When I bid on the TM ESB helmet Ebay auction I knew from my own reference material of original ESB and ANH helmets that the TM was something special.

There ARE differences between ANH, ESB and ROTJ masks and yes they come from the same source. But there were different molds of that source and I think there were generational changes like changes in size. There's not just one mold that survived. Not only that, there were changes in the proportions of the face, changes in the eyebrows, changes in the neck, and of course the cleanup changes like the teeth and nosebridge between ANH and ROTJ. The TM ESB has features that are not similar to the Paul Allen or an original ANH. I don't see how anyone would bother making the modifications to the TM ESB that were made while keeping the original imperfections. There are big differences, for example, between a TM ESB and a VP ANH...and the VP ANH was cast reportedly from a ROTJ production source...which I believe...but ultimately both are from the same ANH source which seems at this point to be the screen-used ANH helmet, although there were two other ANH castings. Nevertheless, I am convinced that the TM ESB is an original casting from the ESB production, and not just because its features are authentic, but because the fiberglass on the inside of the helmet is uncannily similar to that of the Paul Allen ESB, even in some of the flaws on the interior. The TM ESB was not cast during ANH and there is nothing to suggest in its modified features that it was because they didn't make modifications like that on ANH masks.

BTW the Don Bies ESB original helmet had a DP type of mounting ring...

Thomas,
For the record, I don't agree with your assessment of the differences between the three OT helmets.

Also, the Don Bies repainted helmet and armor are both post production pieces and neither match the film parts.

Part of it relates to what you consider a difference arising from a pull or intrinsic to the casting or that results from modification of the casting. So would you say it is not possible to tell an original ANH from an original ESB or an original ROTJ....I'm talking about raw castings....if they were identical then you would not be able to determine lineage...

You might be right about the Don Bies....shame it was so overworked for the auction....so it's hard to tell. But hey, if you had the money would you have purchased that set? I think I would have even though it's not really a good raw casting....

Yes, in terms of raw castings, the anh and esb helmets start out the same and are indistinguishable except for the tabs being cast in on top.
So yes, you would not be able to determine lineage based solely on the raw parts. Only the finishing work (painting, lenses, straps, foam, attachment) is what can be used to verify an original, or even from which film.
Also, the rotj helmets were refurbished esb helmets. New paint, lenses, grill, foam. Any physical discrepancies between the esb helmets and rotj helmets would be due to any last minor clean up, and extra paint during their refurbishing.

As far as the Don Bies set goes, I wouldn't want it if it was free (unless I could re-sell it). There are parts in the public that are closer to the film used stuff than that set.

The DP deluxe ring mount was not a film used method of attachment.

Gino, there are differences, but perhaps not in the castings you've acquired. I'm not sure why you think they are perfectly identical. Differences between ANH and ESB and ROTJ include sagging of the cheeks, differences in proportions of the mouth triangle area, differences in the amount of cleanup (ie: that changes the teeth and nosebridge widths), differences in the amount of eyebrow protrusion, neck curvature, undercut, crown to face proportion, neck trimming, amount of material on the inside edge of the eyes, sharpness of the teeth, not to mention size (ie: a reduction between ESB and ROTJ) etc. etc. For example, the VP ANH certainly is not identical and it's derived from a ROTJ production casting. Nor is the TM ESB identical to the VP ANH. I've not seen your ANH casting closeup but I am sure it is also different from the TM ESB, VP ANH, and original ANH.

I don't know what else to say that I haven't already without repeating myself.

It may be beneficial to see photos proving or disproving differences among all three OT helmets.

The original VP has ROTJ tusks so that could validate what Gino is saying about the ESB and ROTJ being the same faceplate just embellished somewhat.





On saying that the tusks on the original VP kind of look like separate casts.

Anson

From what I have seen of the VP - not having had a chance to study it up close - I highly doubt it has the same level of detail and surface details as the ESB era casts, which the TM is said to be from. It looks much more refined, suggesting coming from a separate mold from the ESB's - if it indeed can be traced back to a RotJ production cast or mold.

The VP has the look that I personally associate with RotJ - this is not proof, but only my opinion - and so far I haven't seen anything to suggest that other than 1 helmet used in RotJ - for the reveal scene - was related to ESB helmets. If all were simply ESB helmets, then why does that one helmet in that scene stand out so much, compared to all other scenes featuring Vader - even up close?

The RotJ is a very different animal... and I'll stick to that until irrefutable proof of otherwise is presented.

I can say that it definately came from an original LFL mould - although I can't use the makers name his name was mentioned in conjunction with LFL at a certain point.




Anson

Oh, I wasn't contesting that one bit, sorry if it came out that way. Was just asking if it could be traced back to the RotJ production or whether it was from later than the movies.

It's from a time later than the movies but the location it was moulded in proves that it's from an original production mould.




I was curious to know why everyone goes on about generational shrinkage in Vader helmets.
I've been mould making and casting for over twenty years in just about every material imaginable and I've never experienced shrinkage in glassfibre or silicone.
Silicone rubber moulds can shrink over time if they're over used or stored improperly but even then it's negligible shrinkage - practically beyond measurable limits.

I HAVE seen it in large fastcast items but NEVER in glassfibre.

Well, from what I've learned from being in the model kit community, then recasts are smaller than the originals - and that goes for both vinyl and resin recasts. Don't know if this applies here as well.

Well the VP sure looks more cleaned up than the TM. A LOT of details are missing. Structurally it's still Vader and it's lovely.

I beautiful mask without a doubt I'd love a copy of that facemask It's better than any 20th C (or derivative) imho.