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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:40 pm 
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vadermania wrote:
Nice pic Thomas, thanks for posting. Looking at the lower tusk tubes of the SL it seems like they are a bit "bumpy" compared to the ones on the TD. There were a few details on the unrestored tusk tubes on my original TM which I thought were a bit strange - on some spots it looked like a thin layer of bondo or paint came off on the original before it was molded. I'll try and post pics later, it's difficult to describe it.


I think I know the part you mean on your TM. Like on Vader's right tube convergence there is a fairly noticeable layer of paint or something that has flaked off from the tube end.

So, about the bumpiness of the tubes on the SL vs TD....I'll look again at the original ANH just to check that. One thing about the TD ANH that you might also notice in that image is where the tubes go on the sides of the face up in one angle, then shift to another angle halfway back around the area of the ears...then proceed further back. That angle is softer on the SL ANH and almost not visible on later castings. But on the TD ANH that angle change is quite a bit more pronounced. I'll try to show that later.

There's also something else about the story of the tubes on the TD ANH which I tried to show at one point here but I don't think the idea was well received. At any rate, if you look at the tube ends on the TD where they were cut, you can see the same cut areas filled in on castings like the SL and TM and even the DS 20th Century mask. It takes careful alignment of images and observation, but the asymmetry in the cuts lines up very well with the asymmetry in how the tube ends meet with the side of the mouth triangle on later castings. I know that's a big fish to swallow and it was when I first showed that possible link, but I'll try to show that again sometime, perhaps this evening.


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:29 am 
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Awesome thread :thumbsup
Still flashed about all this infos and pic's. :ac10
After all this month a really great discussion!


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:05 pm 
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very interesting,
so with what you have found out Thomas, does this mean you think the TD is the original one and only faceplate from the film? or a cast copy from earlier in production?
one in which was used to configure the Vader helemt to be used in the film. and reason why i think it may be thee mask used in the film is due to all the work and alterations on the mask itself. if it was simply a cast. all of that wouldn't be present. and im talking about the different colored resin you found under the paint in thre areas that you pointed out that have clearly been reworked.

with the information that you have shown it seems to be clear thats what it could be. the conclusion i came up with earlier on in this thread was that it was a test subject mask they were trying different things or applications to see how one could wear it and have the dome connect to it. and from the images you posted it clearly was used during filming. but then the sealed off mouth and chin vent with holes would have been cut away. unless of course it was cast again and the TD was the first mask made? which would make sense due to all of the reworking and different aspects showing different ways they came up with wearing the mask and attaching it to the dome that is present on the mask. not to mention the mouth and chin vent being sealed with holes drilled. and then they cats another but then extended the tubes to make the mask they used later on in production. for from the tusk tube examination its clear it evolved into what we know from the SL in which was cast after production. it would only make sense that they would attempt to make a few masks to get the attachment and functionality right.

but what i want to know is, and its hard to tell from the comparison image you posted of the SL and the TD. are the tusk tubes longer on the SL than they are on the TD? its hard to tell but things do look different form the front shot of the tube ends. maybe the tubes on the SL that vadermania pointed out are bumpy due to them lengthening them on the TD? or it just could be it was a sloppy cast?

of course this is all speculation for we do not know for certain. but im thinking it the very fist cast they made to work out all of kinks and to get things ironed out for the production used helmets. and from the images you posted its clear that there possibly were two helmets that were used for filming. specially if you believe if the dome in the lightsaber battle with Ben was different.

just my thoughts on this whole thing.


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:58 pm 
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Great read..happy to see the TD out again!


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:43 pm 
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DynamicMenace wrote:
very interesting,
so with what you have found out Thomas, does this mean you think the TD is the original one and only faceplate from the film? or a cast copy from earlier in production?
one in which was used to configure the Vader helemt to be used in the film. and reason why i think it may be thee mask used in the film is due to all the work and alterations on the mask itself. if it was simply a cast. all of that wouldn't be present. and im talking about the different colored resin you found under the paint in thre areas that you pointed out that have clearly been reworked.


Well it is definitely not the original one and I hope anything I posted didn't suggest that. It cannot be because it has cast tabs. Although I do believe that the tabs we see on the original ANH mask at Don Post studios are not the original ones, or at least not the ones we see on the "UK" masks.

The thing about the alterations is that it would be nice to find an original mask that has the same profile or curvature of the rear corner. I'll try to show the relationship between the cut tube ends on the TD and later castings, just been busy. I have those comparisons already from before I can post again.

What it might be is a copy of the original ANH mask that was used for the costume department to test refinements in finishing, fitting, etc.. But I have nothing to directly prove that...yet.

Quote:
with the information that you have shown it seems to be clear thats what it could be. the conclusion i came up with earlier on in this thread was that it was a test subject mask they were trying different things or applications to see how one could wear it and have the dome connect to it. and from the images you posted it clearly was used during filming.


Well no there's nothing yet to suggest this was used in filming. To which images are you referring? The one with the short tube?

Quote:
but then the sealed off mouth and chin vent with holes would have been cut away. unless of course it was cast again and the TD was the first mask made? which would make sense due to all of the reworking and different aspects showing different ways they came up with wearing the mask and attaching it to the dome that is present on the mask. not to mention the mouth and chin vent being sealed with holes drilled. and then they cats another but then extended the tubes to make the mask they used later on in production. for from the tusk tube examination its clear it evolved into what we know from the SL in which was cast after production. it would only make sense that they would attempt to make a few masks to get the attachment and functionality right.


The shorter tubes earlier in production suggest there might have been modification to the original ANH mask and then before anything else was done to it, they might have decided to make a mold of it and make alterations to copies of it. But that goes against what Brian Muir thinks, namely that they could have simply taken a copy from the original mold and modify or test with that. They had two other pulls at least to work with that don't appear onscreen. So I need a lot more to be able to pin down definitively that it was from an early mold of the original. It did come from the original at least at some point, but the question is when. Certainly earlier than the SL ANH.

Quote:
but what i want to know is, and its hard to tell from the comparison image you posted of the SL and the TD. are the tusk tubes longer on the SL than they are on the TD? its hard to tell but things do look different form the front shot of the tube ends. maybe the tubes on the SL that vadermania pointed out are bumpy due to them lengthening them on the TD? or it just could be it was a sloppy cast?


The SL ANH tube ends are identical to what you see on the original ANH mask in the Tantive IV scenes and at Don post studios. So, yes they are longer and not cut back like on the TD. I'm going to look at those bumps VM pointed out. There are bumps on the TD that match onscreen but they are further toward the V-convergence of the two tubes, not back at the ear area like TM was pointing out.

Quote:
of course this is all speculation for we do not know for certain. but im thinking it the very fist cast they made to work out all of kinks and to get things ironed out for the production used helmets. and from the images you posted its clear that there possibly were two helmets that were used for filming. specially if you believe if the dome in the lightsaber battle with Ben was different.

just my thoughts on this whole thing.



Yes, just speculation....more questions than anything at this point from this very unusual casting. But we can take the concept of a test mask further as I'll try to illustrate.


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:29 am 
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Here's what I meant about the cut tube end on the TD. If you look from below you see where part of the mouth triangle was cut as well. Funny enough, you see the same cut area on the SL ANH and the TM ANH and the DS 20th Century mask. Instead of the tube meeting straight on that full triangle edge, it deviates inward, almost as if at one point there was a cut tube end. Notice also what might be cut lines on the tube ends of both the SL and TD.

Image

These could correspond to cut lines seen onscreen...in this case on the left tube in just the area where the tube was cut on the TD ANH.....it could just be a paint flaw, but certainly a strange coincidence....

Image

The funny thing is, if you look at Vader's right tube end from below, the tube meets with the side of the mouth triangle more uniformly with very little deviation. So the asymmetry in this deviation of the edge of the mouth triangle matches the asymmetry of the deviation seen on the cut tubes of the TD ANH.

Here's the entire chin of the TD and SL from below to show that asymmetry match...

Image


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:34 am 
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There's a detail at the base of the nosebridge on the TD ANH like a paint drip that is a rectangular shape. This is seen on the original ANH mask and shows up more distinctly on the TD ANH than on the SL ANH.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:37 am 
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There's a detail on Vader's left eye corner....a knife-shaped indentation. It shows up more clearly defined on the TD than anything else I've studied...including the SL ANH.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:42 am 
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A small notch on the lower inside corner of Vader's left eye is more pronounced on the TD than the SL...

Image


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:52 am 
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Areas reworked on the TD ANH to round out the outer perimeter of the rear part of the mask can be seen as thicker areas from the rear. These correspond to areas seen on the Paul Allen ESB stunt helmet (circled in red).

Image


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:10 am 
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yes i was referring to the images with the short tubes.

but holy smokes. :eek thats some microscopic analyzing right there.

well it def an early cast. how early is it? really hard telling. but if your finding paint drips and other markings that are found on the film used helemt. the it very well could be one of the first casts from the film used helmet for them to use to configure the ESB helemt. thats really the only logical solution i can think of what it is. specially with out knowing for sure.
and knowing what you have revealed in all of the comparisons and evidence your pointing out.

yeah me stating it was an original mask used for the film is def incorrect. its has to be an early cast from the film used helemt. or even from the mold itself. you point out what "seems" to be a paint drip at the base of the nose bridge. but couldn't it be that it was there before it was painted? and only appears to be a pint drip? after all you do not positively know for sure. so who is to say it wasn't part of the original mold. it very well could be a cast from the original mold for ANH. with everything you have pointed out and all of the details being much sharper or more pronounced than the SL.

its either a cast from the original mold for ANH to be used as a template or test mask for configuring the ESB helmets function. or even during early production of ANH. specially if it has the shorter tubes.

its really hard telling not knowing. but to me it has to be one of those. the evidence points to it IMO. what else could it be?

what do you think it is Sithlord? curious to know what you think it is.


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:44 am 
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wow dude... just wow... so much awesome in one thread.

I wish I could see this thing up close.


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:18 pm 
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DynamicMenace wrote:
... yeah me stating it was an original mask used for the film is def incorrect. its has to be an early cast from the film used helemt. ... or even from the mold itself. ... very well could be a cast from the original mold for ANH.

... its either a cast from the original mold for ANH to be used as a template ...


DM, I think it has been made clear several times that it cannot be a cast from the original ANH mold because of the cast tabs on top of the faceplate. The tabs were separate items produced by 3M which were attached on the original, screen used ANH faceplate in order to connect the faceplate with the dome. Similar "tabs" have been used on old Apple computers, hence the nickname "Apple tabs".

Plus, the TD casting shows imprints of the upper mouth grills, which were also not part of the original father mold for the screen used ANH faceplate.


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 9:41 am 
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SithLord wrote:
No Humor Man wrote:
On the neck of the TD you are showing file impressions, so why you are saying there could have been a neck extension there is beyond me. I'm seeing evidence of actual filing having been done around that edge and the TM with the neck extension HAS the ANH neckline edge and so does the VP which we know have the neck extension, that was trimmed off.


I think you meant to write "could not have been a neck extension". Well the VP is trimmed shorter so it is harder to say what happened to it apart from what we know if the British mask having the extension. But filing marks don't mean that an extension was there. They could easily be from the original ANH mask which itself came from a mold of a plaster master that had the bottom edge trimmed. The SL ANH has the neck plus additional material on its bottom edge but the bottom edge is still intact. You don't have to trim the bottom edge for a mask like that, just inside of that edge perhaps. The SL ANH neck edge is intact not only from the side view but also from the bottom and it overhangs material that would have been part of what backed it up in the mold. Also, one could trim any casting from any mold on the neck, that doesn't mean there was an extension. The fact is, there was no extension on the TD LIKE the one on the TM, otherwise I would see evidence of the sanding that joined the TM extension to the neck. There is none. Sanding was done to blend the extension of the TM to the neck boundary and you see clearly the flattened areas on the neck boundary where the extension is. Do you see this on the original ANH mask? No. Do you see it on the TD? No. Do you see it on the SL? No. The paint drip on the right rear side is not perturbed by any kind of sanding on the TD like it is on the TM, independent of whether you have a casting with the extension on it or not. And I can compare the SL ANH neck edge on the bottom, from the side, etc. and it matches the TD. So there was no extension on the TD like the one on the TM or pre-VP. Could there have been AN extension of some kidn? Possibly, but it didn't leave behind any evidence and it wouldn't match what I see in terms of an undisturbed neck profile compared to the SL.

We know the TM was sanded. Could easily have been sanded in that area too after it was cast. Sure, the extension could also have been added to a cast out of the original UK mold. Sure. It is likely, but again, I'm still not seeing anything that I would consider a slam dunk either way, so I'm sticking with my view until something conclusive is shown.

SithLord wrote:
No Humor Man wrote:
My first run TM helmet has had the neck extension removed and if you didn't know it had it originally I would doubt you would know it was filed away.


I would know if I examined it and also had a TM with an extension in hand to compare it to. I have another authentic mask to compare the TD to, one that we know didn't have an extension and one that came directly from the original ANH mask, which itself had no extension. Whatever photographs I compare the TD or SL to, the neck is the same. Trimming differences can lead to differences in the edges, and there are none. Every other mask that has been trimmed otherwise, like the VP, it is obvious it deviates from the original neckline.

Try and trim a TM and see if you couldn't make it correct. There's no point in comparing to the SL as it was clearly molded without an extension, but that in no way proves the original ANH mask wasn't molded with an extension in the UK and that the TD had it, but was trimmed off. In the threads about the VP you stated vehemently that it never had a neck extension because you could tell, but it was later proven that it had, so again, I'm not seeing any proof that the TD didn't have it.


SithLord wrote:
No Humor Man wrote:
The minor differences in the details on the tabs and the chin vent opening is rather inconsequential when the larger details such as blobs and overall shape and detailing of the filler is the same.


Actually, they are consequential. You cannot have differences like that from castings from the same mold. The differences in the screws, the curvature of the tabs, or even the rear latch point, the minute differences in which knobs are intact and which are not, the differences in which blobs are larger or not. And I didn't even go into that much detail yet of those differences. But they cannot be ascribed to simple differences in how something came out of the mold later on or earlier on.

And there you show that you have no experience with molding and casting. Molds get torn and if the original tabs were molded, then you would have all sorts of damage and deviations occur in that mold, even several casts later, with the resin gripping and tearing into very thin stalk impressions, torn silicone and leftover resin from the previous castings. You will struggle with air pockets, and various other issues when it comes to such a difficult area to mold. Something with undercuts, something with thin stalks with a larger interlocking knob at the top, something that will risk tearing the silicone and tear out chunks of it one tiny bit at a time. Even IF all the stalks are in the mold, the thinness of them and the round top locking them in the mold is enough to snap the resin stalks and imbed them in the mold and when other castings are made, they grip the leftover resin and damaged silicone and do more damage.

So yes, any such minor deviations do simply not matter when we are discussing their connections to each other.

SithLord wrote:
No Humor Man wrote:
They are all linked to that 1 molding of the original ANH helmet. What is the question though is whether the TD is actually from that UK master mold and how many generations later the TM actually is, as we are dealing with differences that can easily be explained by irregularities happen when casting the two. Personally, I think you may be right that the TD is earlier in that sense... but it is still in the same lineage and not something from some other molding - that is simply impossible due to very specific shared details.


Yes, how many generations even that the TD is from that UK master mold or whether it is from a different molding even entirely? By other molding I mean a different, separate molding of the original ANH mask, or a master copy of that mask. It would seem unusual that with the filler material being the same, that the original ANH mask would be molded twice at two different times. But, couldn't it be a possibility that the original mask was simply kept in that state with the filled chin vent? I don't know. But there might be clues. I'll be discussing the nose of the TD ANH at some point as well in relationship to these issues.

It's not from a different molding session. It's simply not possible and we have the filler material in the chin vent to prove that beyond any shadow of a doubt. There's no point to even continue speculating otherwise at all. That HAS been locked down a long time ago. And seeing as the UK masks, which the TD belongs to display more detail than the US masks (from the Rick Baker mold) - you state so yourself - and we know about which time the US mold was made, and that the original screen used helmet went on tour, it is very doubtful that the original helmet was left with the filler material in there when it was molded at an earlier time than the Rick Baker mold - which I still believe was done after it was fixed and repainted for the footprint ceremony.

You have several UK masks that proves that the TD belongs to that lineage. You have the chin vent filler details matching (I don't care about small deviations when the overall flow of the filler shape is the same, which you would NOT get on different applications of something as inconsequential as filler material - just look at the difference in filler appliance between the UK mold and the US Rick Baker mold to get an understanding of how unlikely two moldings would have the same overall shapes to the filler and you can even look at fan helmet molds with those areas filled: ALWAYS different) between the TD, TM and VP. And you have the teeth grill impression being the same on the TD, VP and even the 20th C. And you have the cast tabs with the screws rotated the same and with blobs in the same area - something you don't even see on the fan made replicas that tried to copy that. All that links these helmets together into the same lineage without any doubt and it is pointless to speculate otherwise. It makes no sense. I simply do not understand why you speculate outside such pretty consistent and unmistakably solid facts that these link to the same 1 molding of the original helmet.

Having 1 of the above mentioned features show up in two different molding sessions is very unlikely, even moreso if it happened by accident, but to have all three and more is bordering on the outright impossible. There is simply no other reasoning than that they are within the same lineage and all linking to the same 1 molding of the original ANH.

The differences put together help form a picture of how the original ANH looked and how it differed from any of the castings we know. The ragged rear edge of the TD may have been the reason why later helmets were trimmed shorter, removing all that uneven mess and making things neat and clean. Would be interesting, since you've held both the TM and VP, to know if both extend the same length in the rear.

And all the work done to the TD and even the TM suggests to me that they experimented on several masks in order to make the ESB helmets as we know them.

SithLord wrote:
No Humor Man wrote:
The VP shows that the original UK mold had the ANH lenses in there, so claiming the TD was cast without lenses makes very little sense.


Ok, but then why the impressions of the lenses being there in the eye sockets? How could that possibly be in the casting if the lenses were there to begin with? Not only that, the inside edges of the sockets extend further than what I see on the SL ANH, which has original lenses. They would not only have to file away the lenses, they would have to create extensions around the sockets. I'll try to show that in more detail later as I'm at work now. But I appreciate your always very critical and direct approach to the discussions, so thanks!

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you talking about the ridge seen prior to what you call the extended material at the rear? Or what?

I've been thinking of a way to make this clear, but I was wondering: how deep are the drill holes in the teeth gaps and the chin vent? Are they deep or shallow? And are they same depth as the extra material in the eye sockets?

If only I had a cast to show exactly what I mean regarding the different filing approaches. There is the rough filing and then there is the refining filing - if they only did the first, then that could explain the extra material extending further back in the sockets.


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:44 pm 
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vadermania wrote:
DynamicMenace wrote:
... yeah me stating it was an original mask used for the film is def incorrect. its has to be an early cast from the film used helemt. ... or even from the mold itself. ... very well could be a cast from the original mold for ANH.

... its either a cast from the original mold for ANH to be used as a template ...


DM, I think it has been made clear several times that it cannot be a cast from the original ANH mold because of the cast tabs on top of the faceplate. The tabs were separate items produced by 3M which were attached on the original, screen used ANH faceplate in order to connect the faceplate with the dome. Similar "tabs" have been used on old Apple computers, hence the nickname "Apple tabs".

Plus, the TD casting shows imprints of the upper mouth grills, which were also not part of the original father mold for the screen used ANH faceplate.


aah yes. good point. thank you for pointing that out. hard to keep everything in tact when trying to add everything up..lol

maybe the tabs hold the key to what it is. or to when it was cast. taking into consideration that the tubes were shorter from early on of production. and then the tubes were extended later. could it be that they molded and cast the fil used helmet to make the TD as a template of how they wanted to engineer the helemt for it use, how it would eb worn? with all that is evident that has been done to it. maybe thats what it actually is then. a test subject mask. maybe they were using it to work things out during production. did things as they went along. could explain why the details are more prominent. and there is more to the tabs than on later casts.

has to be an early cast, and from all that has been done to it and is seen on it thats the only logical explanation. yeah i know i said that before. but its really the only thing that makes any sense. to me at least.
its either a cast to try and work things out for the ANH helemt. and very possibly could have been used again for the ESB helemt no?


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