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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 9:37 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:57 am
Posts: 421
Right on. My thing has always been - even if you have good pictures of that C-scar it is SOOOO hard to reproduce what would be the point?!!! If someone wants to try then, cool - we'd all like to see anyone try something and follow along with the project. Just my take on things.

And like above, the ANH helmet was nicer going into the shoot then how it came out. Me, I sanded out the neck drip because I'm pretty certain that folks on the set did not say, "what if Vader were drooling out the corner of his mouth?" Stuff like that.

But I do respect that folks are going for the actual prop replication and not the screen, non-HD version. Two totally different animals.

Personally I like the C-scar look. Battle damage!!!! It puts Vader into the appeal of those sandtroopers - a very storied look. Love it.

So - did Baker fix the C-scar before molding? I do suspect it is the same helmet - the eye contours are the same along with other stuff. Hmmmm. And I was told he molded it right after principle photog. or thereabouts.

Does this deepen the mystery of provenance or is it another well-fitting puzzle piece?

And thanks for the photos!!! Even if you're grumpy about them being out, we're having fun seeing them. Good vibes all around over here.

In the end I love that there seems to be more than one "real" early Vader helmet! A shot of TM and SL side by side? Has this happened?


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 9:57 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:33 pm
Posts: 490
John, I believe he did repair and repaint the helmet prior to the Chronicles shoot, and remoulded it after. It explains the subtle C scar tells still in all you guys castings. I believe that is the actual screen helmet for the shoot and the ceremony. I believe the resulting ESB star field poster was also created by that same shoot or else a pull from that new RB mould. The neck appears slightly thinner on the poster, but I struggle with whether it was the original or a thinner necked casting on the poster. To me that is the only mystery.

I am truly stuck on the Screen Accurate version of Vader for my mannequin display, but I'm still incredibly fond of the Chronicles version Vader as that version was the one that graced the front of the Star Wars Storybook and my all time favorite Vader pic growing up. It was also on the big poster with the yellow background, how I loved that pose. :) It became the official licensed image for so many things. So it will always have that soft spot in my heart. Bottom line is: if I want accuracy where the blobs and drips go, I have to get something from the UK mould, if I want the chronicles look, it's gotta be that Baker mould. Each source only gives me half the picture I so desperately love. :)


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 10:25 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:46 pm
Posts: 5241
Location: San Jose, CA
Dentist,

Nothing's stopping you from just doing a "Chronicles" bust. :thumbsup


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 10:27 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:33 pm
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That is more or less the plan if I ever score an RB sourced helmet. :)

PS, apparently gino admitted that the unaltered casting out of the baker mould has the divot, somehow I missed that while wading thru the muck. But Now it's been answered so I'll let it die. They just decided to remove it I suppose. I kinda figured but it's nice to have confirmation. I'd still like to see it in the mould as I'd like to see how it looks in comparison to the SL and DJ versions. Don't think that will ever happen. I'm not on the buddy list in the gino camp. Go figure!!!


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 1:21 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:57 am
Posts: 421
I do like the Chronicles version but I always thought it was a little more cleaned up than the RB casting. There are brush strokes and things in the RB that I can't see in the Chronicles.

Again, y'all pay more attention than I do but a good comparison shot might be in order here too.

Was gonna say too - that thinner neck on this DJ comes in part from the mold curling in and drying on that side. When Bies cast one up out of there he pinned that piece of rubber to an adjacent object to hold it. Kept the neck wide but created a different distortion of its own. Minor though.

Fun stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 1:40 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:33 pm
Posts: 490
So you think that thinner neck in the ESB poster was a new casting or just a photo editing thing?


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 2:19 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:50 pm
Posts: 392
I bet the whole costume is a new one, including the helmet. I mean, look at things like the thickness of the dome side (flaps). Pretty thin... indicative of the LFL repro/tour helmets. I have seen wider pics of the suit and things are different, like the buckle, like the cod, like the chestbox.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 2:22 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:33 pm
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for real? the last anyone ever said about it to me it was the chronicles set of pics. I feel much better thinking it is a different suit. Tour or promotional in that poster. I love that huge blown up photo I got from the UK of that costume, I got the poster sized photo and I love it. I've never sat down and compared it to the chronicles per se as I don't have a large enough chronicles pic to compare to. I tried once, but it pixelated so badly on me that I gave up. :)


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:16 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:33 pm
Posts: 490
just wanted to share these two screen caps. in the first one, c scar disappears, in second one, different light direction, C scar is there. This is all you need to know to prove it's dimensional. Those pix that eFX gave gino to post of the Legend, it's photographed from all sides and in every single pic, you can see the paint only C scar. that's exactly what you'd expect with paint without dimension.

:)
Image
Image


Last edited by vaderdentist on Mon May 02, 2011 4:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:18 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:05 pm
Posts: 1312
Location: Pennsylvania
I'm not seeing the pics..?


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:20 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:33 pm
Posts: 490
now it's fixed. Damn that was weird. I did what I always do and photobucket inverted different characters for each photo.


Last edited by vaderdentist on Mon May 02, 2011 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:26 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:05 pm
Posts: 1312
Location: Pennsylvania
Cool...they are up now.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:30 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:33 pm
Posts: 490
You can repeat the exercise with gino's painted C scar and no matter which side the light hits it from .......doesn't disappear......which is exactly what you'd expect with a non dimensional painted op.

You cannot hide the contrast between the gunmetal paint scratches and the black around it. No matter how you light it, you still see the difference between the two. But if the little raised portion of the C catches the light.......voila! Now you see it......now you don't.

Sweet!!!

Now take it a step further, see that little gray rectangular landmark out on the outer edge of the same cheek, you can see it clearly in the shadows.....that's because it is a paint difference..........that's likely primer. You'll see that in every lighting condition.

Am I a scientist or what???

Dave :)


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:59 am 
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Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 5:14 am
Posts: 2
Thanks for posting this Karo.

I know I am a newbie here, I am doing my best to learn about the Vader replica culture specific to these two forums.

I can imagine how being secretive seemed like a good modus operandi to protect certain details of your prop replicas, to be able to verify, for you TM owners, the pedigree of your helmets.

But from the posts here, that same secrecy allowed pirates to make their best guess and profit by it (e.g. SPFX) without recourse because no one would confirm or deny the authenticy of the helmet in question. And fears that anyone might make a knock off led to folks posting misleading (e.g. photo shopped) images, which only fuels mistrust by others. "We're lying and concealing to protect our items" is not a good defense and, in fact, is one of the major problems as I see it when eFX now comes up with their LFL-blessed ANH helmet and even allows a few RB mold pictures to be posted.

If anyone gets details so they can cast a good knock off, it should not matter if they did not have documentation from someone who has an authenticated TM and transferred ownership to them.

Provenance. At this point, based on all the knocks off that have been reported, it has to be about provenance to confirm authenticity. That is how the art world does it. And technology and the internet has only helped that. When Butterfield's tried to sell a few faked Nagel paintings, and posted images on the web, believe me, they heard about it and the paintings were pulled.

I don't know if you TM owners also made agreements not to replicate your copies. I do not know, but it seems like there was a desire to keep this TM cast a rarity.

The way this C-Scar/Mark debate has been going, obviously the secretive modus operandi has turned out to be folly.

At this point, there is so much historical speculation going on that anything shy of all us Vader freaks using a time machine to go back in time and see the original helmet during the window of time between it being filmed for ANH and the UK and US castings, I doubt this will ever get resolved and the whole c-scar/mark will never be fully resolved.

I will personally say I do not like the manner and tone in which a certain person makes his pronouncements, which seems highly inflammatory, but I was hoping the members of this forum would not validate his "This is about attacking me" perspective. I see many of the folks here are capable of acting and responding better than that, but others appear quite willingly to play into his vision of how things are.

At this point, I am highly prone to believing that the c-mark is a scar that was present on the TM because of the way many of you have openly responded. It has that undefinable "ring of truth" to it. It also now seems it is highly likely the scar was cleaned away or repaired before Rick Baker make his mold, but when I keep reading personal attacks, I start to feel less inclined to agree since I loose respect for folks and the issue immediately gets muddied by someone's desire to put someone in their place, and then the question of truth and motivation is no longer pure.

At this Den, I don't understand the few folks who appear to want to boil themselves in someone else's pot and help make his point...someone who doesn't even participate at this Den.

As an outsider just walking in for the first time, I am seeing fault on both sides when it would have been very easy, just by the manner, to make it clearer to us newbies that this really is about becoming open, getting information to the larger Vader community, and sharing information. It could have been a slam dunk for members of this forum.

Again, I apologize for still learning the culture here, but it is clear this place aspires to rise above personal attacks and provide solid information for high-end Vader nerds.

....change of thought....

This forum. Wow!

The fact that Brian Muir has participated here at this forum is beyond amazing. Wow.

I wish I had known about this place and all of you two years ago.
It would have prevented me from purchasing an SPFX helmet that now
I will be giving away to a fellow Vader fan for free once my eFX ones arrive.

Peace out.




Karo wrote:
Other than Tom, Joerg and Jesper, the original TM has been seen and handled by Eric (Slasher X), Mike (Vadermonkey) and myself. The TM is quite heavy and to be honest has a rather weird old smell to it based on it's age. When looking at the faceplate from the inside, you can clearly see it's a bit aged. How many years, I have no idea.

All the details you see here in this thread and many others across the Den are all on the original TM faceplate. If anything, Jesper removed certain artifacts and details that I wish he had left on. In his quest to try and uncover the true base laying, there were ceratin sacrifices that were done. However, if he hadn't really been commited, then the TM would have looked like it does in those 1st stage pics that are being posted on the rpf now. For that, I thank Jesper for his diligence in uncovering the truth.

I recently posted some pics for the TM owners of the original with some other of the other castings. They will agree that the details you see here are also on the original. Posting pics of the original, which by the way has already been done numerous times, will prove nothing. The new argument will be that the original TM was altered, blah, blah, blah. I can assure you it's not. That is coming from someone who had hands on experience with it, not someone who claims to know something about it based on pictures.

I wasn't too happy about this thread being posted or the size of the pics being offered. Some of my TM brothers feel differently and that's ok, we don't need ti agree on that. There isn't a faceplate out there as authentic as the TM that has been posted with nice clear pictures and with the information that accompanied those pics. Raw pics of the original TM have been posted numerous times and specific details pics have been posted by me plenty of times. I think the TM guys have been very open with regards to the TM in both pics and information. And as Carsten stated, A LOT of info has been gathered from it. It's really a shame, that even now, that same willingness to show pics and give out accurate information is being used as an attack on it. This is why we don't ever make any progress with vader threads. The same people making the same wild assumption based on incorrect information and stating it as fact. In the end though, as I just proved on the rpf, all it takes is time to realize who is full of hot air.

* I stand corrected in regards to the photoshopped image. There had been several pics that had been posted at one time that were photoshopped as Mac explained that he was asked to do. Since that pic didn't have the C scar yet, I assumed it was one of the PS pics. I aksed Tom to go on the forums for clarification on a few points and I'm glad he did.


Last edited by NagelFan on Mon May 02, 2011 5:48 am, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 5:07 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:52 pm
Posts: 175
After seeing the wonderful pic of the TM mask, i watched ANH yesterday and i could clearly see in 2 scenes that there was a distinct tear shaped depression in the centre of Vader's cheek where the C scar is. The first one was just before Vader says, "They've just made the jump into hyperspace..."...the 2nd, i can't remember now....could have been in the corridors before the DS battle.

It's funny what you notice when looking for it! I thought it'd be a 2D scar, like the Efx, but onscreen, it really did appear as a depression.

Rich


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