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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 7:26 am 
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SithLord wrote:
Believe what you want to believe. Kermit got the suit from someone who worked on the ANH production, and it wasn't some anonymous crew member. The shins he got were vacuformed. If you think I'm lying then when you find out the answer please let us know. If you think you'll never know the truth, then you'll never find it. If you make the effort to investigate, maybe you'll find that what I am saying is the truth. If I think it is conjecture I will say as such. I have no a priori reason to offer another suggestion as to what the shins were made of and certainly no reason to, as has been implied, counter what Brian thinks, nor did I because I agree and know that fiberglass shins were made because I saw evidence of that. All I am saying is that, as Kermit got them from LFL as part of the original screen-used suit, they were vacuformed. That's all I'm saying.


I'm not saying you're lying, I'm asking you to prove the ABS shins were made for production.

As I said before just because Eller was given ABS shins it doesn't they were made to be used in the film and they're isn't a way to prove otherwise is there?

So you can't categorically state it's a fact that the ABS shins were used in the production - it's your theory - please prove it.


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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 11:02 am 
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I find the response from SL to be ironic at best. How many times has GINO done the very same thing and people, SithLord among them, have out and out ostracized him for that attitude?

Here is the point of contention. Kermit was given a suit from LFL. That suit may or may not have had ABS shins. Does that mean the movie suit had ABS shins as well? So far as we know, no one there was on set to see anything, even Kermit. He was given a suit. Simple as that. So let's not say that he has any more knowledge than anyone else about what was used. SL, I will concede that it is indeed not outside of the realm of possibility that they may have been ABS.

Here is a question for Brian: Is it possible they couldhave made a vac form buck from your sculpts of the shins? I know zero about sculpting/molding, so excuse my ignorance.


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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 2:28 pm 
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SithLord wrote:
Wrong. In that statement I am providing the reason I stated the fact. Someone who wore the original screen suit is witness to that fact. In a court of law there would be cross-examination of that witness. If the witness substantiates the claim then it's considered a factual statement in lieu of direct evidence to the contrary. Regardless, you don't have to accept what I say as fact if you don't want to. Find out for yourself and then we'll see who is making uncorroborated statements or not. You always want the facts handed to you on a silver platter and don't bother doing any research yourself. And you essentially accuse me of lying. When information comes your way all you can do is complain about it instead of trying to find out yourself to verify whether it is true or not, or even appreciate that I am providing information. This is no different from when I stated information I got from Brian Muir on the RPF and people questioned it there. If you don't believe me then fine, find out for yourself and get back to me.


Thomas, The law isn't as simple as your making it to prove a fact.
when your basing your case on somebody's memory's of the events, you
have to establish that the persons memory isn't skewed obviously like
Dave Prowse. People do Forget things of this nature.

How do you know that Kermit's word is good without knowing how well
he remembers all he's done in his life? I think the biggest question I want
to ask is who did you hear this fact from (source, friend, ect) and if it was
someone besides Kermit, how do you know what they are telling you is
correct or that their memory is good?

I think you really have to look at what your saying from a different point
of view.. If I told you that "I slept with Jessica Alba (OMFG Mmmmmmm :la
and the baby she's now carrying is mine and if you don't believe me ask
her" You'd probably tell me I'm full of shit unless I could prove it..

Thomas knowone here is trying to give you a hard time, but your facts have
come up to be misquoted, or wrong in the past, and all everyone is asking
for is proof, not conjecture. Simply telling us to go ask him cannot establish
a fact.. It's very Gino-ish and I'm surprised coming from you seeing how
you do so much research and are so willing to provide evidence of you
findings..


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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 2:48 pm 
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Jessica Alba is pregnant? :eek SHIT... I'm outa here...











(sorry for the OT) :lol


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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 2:55 pm 
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Qui-Gonzalez wrote:
I find the response from SL to be ironic at best. How many times has GINO done the very same thing and people, SithLord among them, have out and out ostracized him for that attitude?



Before Brian Muir joined us, SithLord made is claim to fame by being able to drop "facts" here and there, and name-drop Brian Muir as the one who allegedly told him. None of us had any means of contacting Brian to verify these "facts" so SithLord was regarded as a beneficiary of all this Vader information.

Then Brian Muir joins us and it turns out that Thomas has been misquoting him and that certain "facts" are quite wrong.

Brian reveals that three years ago, SithLord came to him with a certificate of authenticity and was asked by SL to authenticate his TD. Brian told him no and told him why.

Three years later, some time before Brian joined us, in the Privileged Section, SL discusses the possibility of his TD being a production original -- completely ignoring Brian Muir, yet trying to convince the public. Among various points discussed, the cast tabs are what keep it from being a production original -- which is one of the very things Brian Muir had already gone through with SithLord.

Simple oversight on SithLord's part? I'm starting to really doubt that. I think all this discussion to the TD is nothing but an attempt to drive the value-prestige of his mask up. The very thing that will resolve all these questions about the TD factually if it is indeed the predecessor of the TM or VP is if the paint is removed and the artifact details studied. Short of that, it's all guesswork at best. But it seems a trend for SL to post his guesses out loud and then add the words "Maybe someone can confirm this."

Whereas if you confronted GINO and asked him to corroborate his facts whereupon he'd say "Look at my statues... I must know something!" SithLord's tone now is that he disregards and disagrees with Brian Muir, though "respectfully".

What do you call picking and choosing what you want to believe, and denying anything that would lead to a devaluation and/or decrease of prestige of the TD and its tie to a production original? "Respectful" is hardly the word. "Patronizing" to us Den members is more like it. Funny how "respectful" he was when it benefited him to name-drop Brian to bolster his points in past conversations. So now that SL disagrees with Brian Muir on this TD, the rest is a runaway train of propaganda, unscientific conjecture and chest thumping.

And then SL has the nerve to tell us to go to Kermit to "prove" what he just said. Well, if he didn't quote Brian Muir right in the first place....

By the way, after having all this pointed out, his starting not one but three threads on "Facts" is just sad, as if discussing "facts" will cause people to forget the untruths and manipulation in a particular recent thread. Well, in the case of misquoting Brian Muir, it points to a self-promotional agenda.


Last edited by CSMacLaren on Fri May 23, 2008 3:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 3:05 pm 
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I will say this only once. Keep it civil or this thread will be closed. No more fighting or personal attacks!


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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 3:13 pm 
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Then I'll stick to the "facts" and go on record to say that I don't think these recent threads are really about facts but what can be passed for facts.

I think we're more interested in the truth. Facts can be manipulated. The word "fact" can also be misused to imply the truth.

Anything stated as fact should be corroborated, otherwise why was this thread even started?


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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 5:07 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:52 pm
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artisanprops wrote:

Thomas, The law isn't as simple as your making it to prove a fact.
when your basing your case on somebody's memory's of the events, you
have to establish that the persons memory isn't skewed obviously like
Dave Prowse. People do Forget things of this nature.

How do you know that Kermit's word is good without knowing how well
he remembers all he's done in his life? I think the biggest question I want
to ask is who did you hear this fact from (source, friend, ect) and if it was
someone besides Kermit, how do you know what they are telling you is
correct or that their memory is good?

I think you really have to look at what your saying from a different point
of view.. If I told you that "I slept with Jessica Alba (OMFG Mmmmmmm :la
and the baby she's now carrying is mine and if you don't believe me ask
her" You'd probably tell me I'm full of shit unless I could prove it..

Thomas knowone here is trying to give you a hard time, but your facts have
come up to be misquoted, or wrong in the past, and all everyone is asking
for is proof, not conjecture. Simply telling us to go ask him cannot establish
a fact.. It's very Gino-ish and I'm surprised coming from you seeing how
you do so much research and are so willing to provide evidence of you
findings..


You were just looking for an excuse to use that icon. lol!


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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 7:08 pm 
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clutch wrote:
You were just looking for an excuse to use that icon. lol!


:thumbsup :toothy


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 6:13 am 
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Posts: 3112
Mac, if you want to complain about the TD ANH...go to that thread. The fact is that it's impossible the 3rd pull had the identical mouth grill as the screen mask and every paint flaw the screen mask has. It's simple logic and not rocket science. So I am entitled to disagree with Brian but it has nothing to do with questioning his integrity as you and others here like to paint it. It has to do with what is consistent with the features of the original screen mask and the TD. That's what I discussed with Brian for three years. Why is this hard for you to grasp, I wonder.

Once I mistook what Brian did with the helmet center strip. Big deal, and then you accuse me of miquoting him for three years. I find that offensive, especially since I went through that with you already before but you like to paint this picture of me with some alterior motives. Get my quotes from RPF...Brian helped me even on that forum and he read my posts there so that I made sure I was accurate about what I said, and if I stated something inaccurately he asked me to change it. So how the heck did I misquote him for three years? Find something on RPF I was misquoting him on. Or here apart from that one time I misunderstood the process of the center strip sculpting. Why in heaven's name do I have to go through this with you AGAIN??? I could easily go back to RPF and find every time I mentioned Brian Muir. Would you like me to do that? I would love to just to show people here what kind of nonsense you like to dish out for whatever reason...like jumping on whatever bandwagon is popular at the time without contributing anything original to a discussion.

I also take offense to people misreading what I write. I made it clear how many times in this thread? But you guys just don't get it. Kermit has stated clearly that the shins were vacuformed and well used when he got them. That is from a firsthand interview I know someone did with him. He had the original costume for how many years? In his care every day? I didn't say they were like that in the production I said it is a FACT he got them as vacuformed and they came from LFL that way. I was ASKING if it's possible they were switched during production. Yes that implies they were also vacuformed during production...they could have been both. I wanted to discuss that possibility since it's FACT that they were vacuformed when they got into his hands. It's not hearsay and I am in the process of contacting the gentleman from LFL that gave him the original suit for the tour to confirm whether they were indeed used in production. I really wonder why I should contribute here at all or bother. You guys take it as arrogance if I state something with certainty instead of rationally discussing it. Or you think of it as a hidden agenda. For whatever reasons you have to not believe me, again it's entirely up to you. I'm not offended if you don't believe me, but I am offended if you make up stories about alterior motives or make false statements or accusations about me. I try very hard to be fair here, really hard, and I also try to be clear.

So anyway, I should be able to find out if they were indeed the production shins just to make my point. I'll report on that when I get the information and try to get something in writing. If they were not the production shins, fine, but I actually do something about getting information instead of just sitting around and complaining or ascribe alterior motives to facts I don't believe.

Why in heavens name do I bother....


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 6:52 am 
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SithLord wrote:

So anyway, I should be able to find out if they were indeed the production shins just to make my point. I'll report on that when I get the information and try to get something in writing. If they were not the production shins, fine, but I actually do something about getting information instead of just sitting around and complaining or ascribe alterior motives to facts I don't believe.

Why in heavens name do I bother....


You did state in this thread the the shins were production made, you also used the word fact.

You make these definitive statements which you're not 100% sure about and the you get shirty when people question you.
You can be just as rude if not ruder than anyone here and you come across as being arrogant sometimes - disagreeing with the man that sculpted Vader with is own hands is a case in point.

It was his sculpt, he obviously knows and remembers every detail - how can you question that?

We'll all rationally discuss your theories when they're stated as theories and not pushed as anything else.

What are we supposed to do - agree with everything you say?


Last edited by AnsonJames on Thu May 29, 2008 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 7:36 am 
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I took it as SithLord was saying that Kermit Eller receiving vacuformed shins was a fact; but whether or not vacuformed shins were used during production at any point in place of the fiberglass ones was unknown. Nobody is in doubt that there were only fiberglass shins at the start of production.

Well at least that’s how I understood him for what it’s worth.


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 10:37 pm 
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SithLord wrote:

Kermit got the ORIGINAL SCREEN USED SUIT at the start of the ANH tour in 1977. FACT

The shins he got were vacuformed and NOT fiberglass. FACT


The implication is the original screen suit had vacuum formed shins.
For all we know parts of the suit were reproduced for the tour - lightweight shins anybody?

Brian says the production shins were fibreglass and I'm inclined to believe him for a couple of reasons.

1. He sculpted them.
2. He was there.


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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:01 am 
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You know, I know nothing about the vader stuff, so this is just great stuff. Where is the popcorn???


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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:04 am 
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Popcorn? As you wish!

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