I am agree, they are flimsy but also the buckets used in the originals movies are flimsy too. Actually the SDS hero helmet it is made of 2.5mm High Impact Styrene.
MR as far as I know they are making their new helmets in fiberglass.
I read that the stormtrooper bucket would be made of Fiberglass, also they said that it will be the way the original helmets were made (dome, mask, and ears), except for they were vacuum formed. But judging by their latest pictures(prototype)...well, it looks something different

I added a number of pics of the new MR stormtrooper to my site this weekend. IMO Its a good "prototype", they just need to make a few changes to it before it goes into production.

My main issue with it is its neither a Stunt or a hero, but more a hybrid of the two. And to set the record state, let me say that I quite like MR helmets (I have 3 clone variants and a Vader), I just hope they get this one right since the OT stuff has a certain place in my heart.

Regarding the ongoing court case, IMO neither SDS nor LFL will win outright. They'll just do the thing they should have done 2 years ago, sit round a table and work out an arrangement that suits both parties.

Cheers

Jez

Do not missunderstand me. I like MR too. I have the 327 star corps.
The only thing is that the new stormtrooper is not what I spected it.
I believe the sds buckets are closer to de originals.
Yep I also hope the reach an agreement.

I think what this amounts to -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- is the definition of a "design".

There are some who say that the design is any two dimensional concept that you develop. Then there are some who say no, that's not a design -- the design is the 3D implementation. I had the same conversation with someone in a different industry who said that I was not a "designer" in that I was only creating artistic concepts, even though I was actually providing 1:1 scale schematics and giving the manufacturing outfit the liberty of interpreting those into a three dimensional object.

If this is how you read the lawsuit, then this gets really tricky. This would mean the McQuarrie art given to AA were only "concepts". And even though AA did not create the Stormtrooper "design-concept", in interpreting a 2D image into 3D, he may be saying that his "design-implementation" is his.

Both can technically be defined as "design".

Now in the computer industry, when you work for a manufacturer, there is certain legalese that says that whatever you develop for a company that retains you as an employee or contractor shall become the intellectual property of that company.

If AA signed something like this, then it leaves little wiggle room.

I personally feel Ralph McQuarrie created the looks for Vader and the Stormtroopers, but to be honest the final Vader and Stormtroopers we've come to know look so different than the concept sketches.

Conversely, when I design a 1:1 scale schmatic, I'm telling the manufacturing outfit exactly how I want this thing to look, and there is no room for their imagination.

I dont think you can really attribute the stormtrooper design to RM.
As you pointed out yourself the concept sketches are very different to the actual props.
AA certainly seems pretty confident that he is the owner of the design of the finished props.Some will have noticed that he has now removed the cog decals from his TIE and DS gunner helmets which tells me he does now admit he doesn't have the rights to use those designs yet he is still producing those helmets.
If he didn't believe that he had the rights to produce the helmets surely he would cease to do so like he has ceased to use the imperial cog design ?

Well, regardless of the definition of the term "design" you also have to consider the term "Intellectual Property" which is legally defensible.

I can argue my unique 2D schematic designs are my intellectual property, and I can have a verbal or written agreement with the manufacturing company that this is my intellectual property (I.P.), and they are not at liberty to copy it.

If you think about it, American companies have toys made in China all the time. They may or may not necessarily use American artists. A sculptor cannot say that Spider-man is his design because the rights of that design -- bar none -- is owned by Marvel Entertainment. He's still rightfully the sculptor. The design may be his, but Spider-Man is still Marvel's I.P.

If AA can show that there is a huge difference between art/schematics provided to him and the final result, then it can be argued that the Stormtrooper design is uniquely his, unless he signed something that said whatever he would design would become LFL's intellectual property.

Stan Lee, for example, who created Spider-man cannot strike out on his own and make a Spider-man comic without Marvel. He sold the rights to Marvel.

A good example of this is the famous lawsuit "GAIMAN VS MCFARLANE" in the comic book world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Gaima ... _McFarlane

I just wish i was a lawyer on this case license to print money

having purchased armor and a helmet from SDS a few months ago, and having gotten to know AA somewhat through a slew of emails, I can definitely say he believes he is in the right. just thinking though, I wonder why he hasn't sued LFL over all the money made off of Stormtrooper action figures, costumes and other merchandise. if he truly believes the design to be his, it would only seem to follow that he tries to protect HIS intellectual rights just as LFL does.
I just think there needs to be some kind of agreement between them (AA and LFL). I mean, even if you assume he's right and the designs are uniquely his, the fact that the movie made them famous HAS to be taken into account at the very least, imho.

Crow - I think he has now counter-sued Lucasfilm for them using "his" designs in the other movies/Toys/Games etc. However, even if AA was to win I doubt a judge will all of a sudden back-date 30 years worth of toy revenues. IMO it sounds a little like the Procul Harum "A Whiter Shade of Pale" music case in the High Court recently, where the organist won part rights to the song, although only going forward, not back (not bad though!)

However it would still be a big ask for completely AA to win this case outright, as Mac and Gary have illustrated its a complex legal argument over where exactly the rights go when something designed in 3D is based on something produced previously as a sketch.

Cheers

Jez

Bingo,

It's standard in the film industry for the art department to give only 2D illustrations, concepts and sketches to the prop department to build out.

Also, when the D.C. Comics sued the publishers of Captain Marvel for similarities to Superman, those were only 2D drawings.

Bit like comparing apples to oranges that i think similarities of one design to another is one thing the stormtrooper case is a totally different animal.
i think to put it in its simplest form LFL need to prove that either

A: They can prove or show that the stormtrooper design is a 3D realisation of RM's work to which they do own the rights.

B:They can show legal paperwork showing that they are the rightful owners of the design.

C: They can show a contract or paperwork showing that AA designed the piece but for them and all rights would remain with them.

D: They can show that a third party infact designed and sculpted the 3D design and AA was simply a manufacturer.

AA on the other hand doesn't need to prove anything to the court at least not in UK law in his defence case.
Of course in his counter case against LFL then he would be on the side that would need to provide evidence of ownership.
I wouldn't be surprised to see this end up with an out of court settlement of some sort.
The thing i find interesting is if LFL aren't able to prove that they are the rightful owners and AA is in the same boat then that would mean that there is no rightful owner.
In LFL's case that could prove costly as there are bound to be people come out of the woodwork that they have sued in the past for using the design

Gary - Excellent post . I've read up a lot on this over the last near-two years and your post is exactly what my understanding is of the issues.

As with life in general, the truth (and ownership) IMO is somewhere in the middle and both sides own the rights together. Its now a question of whether they continue to fight for absolute 100% ownership or they meet in the middle and haggle

Cheers

Jez

Cheers Jez
It does seem rather crazy though that Uncle George didnt tie up legal ownership at the time dont you think especially as merchandise was something he had in mind from the beginning ?

Yes it does seem strange. Clearly most of the people working on the film were classed as employees - i.e. they either worked for Star Wars Corp (like Mollo, Kurtz, John Barry etc.) or EMI Elstree Studios (Brian Muir, Liz Moore etc.), so all their work is covered as an employee.

However the confusion/complexity seems to be that AA was neither of these, and in clear differentiation to what we expect now, he was not given an order of any kind (nor a NDA or contract) so nothing legally appears to exist linking him contracturally with the project. In addition he seems to have done a lot of his work FOR a man called Nick Pemberton (who I think did the Tusken) so again there was no direct link. Again NP wasnt under contract so it does look very complex and messy.

In fact the whole case is a mess. TBH i get frustrated when this is discussed on other boards and its seen by some as an "open and shut, he's guilty, hang him" case. The vast majority of these people havnt seen any of the case notes and really dont understand how complex it really is.

Like you I am surprised that LFL didnt try to go back after the film and tidy things up. I can only think they didnt see it as an issue, believing they HAD covered themselves when maybe they hadnt.

IMO AA's case rests firmly on his assertion that he sculpted the stormtrooper helmet, and I therefore have 2 opposing views

1) If he's correct then why didnt LFL go back and clear up the copyright once and for all?
2) If he didnt scupt it (ie he merely fabricated the helmets from their moulds) then he doesnt have a leg to stand on. In which case why has he progressed the case this far?

Its one hell of a poker game!

Cheers

Jez

No matter the outcome... I don't think it would open up for the legality of fan helmets, as some have suggested. Even though it may not be settled who has absolute right to the Stormtrooper design, the battle is still fought by the two entities that have any claim to the rights... fan helmet and armor makers have no rights to anything... so even if SDS wins it will NOT be a green flag for fan helmet and armor makers to make more and sell more openly.

Just my two cents.