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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:09 pm 
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No Humor Man wrote:
Regarding the tube lengths. I'm seeing those being exact same length on all the pictures. The bottom comparisons just show more shadow, making the groove between the top and bottom tube to look longer. You can even make out that same extra bit on the other picture, just less visible due to being lit, so not causing a shadow there, but when you mark out the outline of the tubes, the position of the cheek corner and the position of the mouth wall edge, you can see that the tube shape is the same on both - it's just shadow causing one to look like the groove between the upper and lower tube extends further.

Seeing as it should be possible to find screen captures that correspond better with each other from the various parts of the movie, it should be easier to make comparisons than pictures that are basically rather far off.


These are old comparisons, but I did think they showed the difference rather well. Take any of your masks and try to make them show these kinds of differences just based on lighting or angle. It isn't just apparent length, it is length in relationship to the front edge of the mouth and from the V-shaped convergence. But maybe additional captures would be in order.


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:21 pm 
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vadermania wrote:
Thomas, just out of curiosity: is there a difference in size between the TD and the SL faceplate?


Good question. The overall feeling is the TD seems a bit larger overall in the head (crown) and neck, and the mouth triangle is wider on the TD than the SL (nothing has beaten the TD in that department). However, the cheek width is a tiny bit narrower on the TD than the SL because the TD's left cheek side face is smoothed out a bit compared to the SL's. But really they are the same size class, nearly the same to the untrained eye. I'll post comparisons later after I get home as my webhost doesn't have any handy right now.

vadermania wrote:
I agree Carsten, we should have a look at other images as well to check if there is really a. difference in the tusk tube length between different scenes in ANH. If I remember correctly, the aluminum tusks on the ANH faceplate were flat on one end where they were glued to the tusk tube ends, and they broke off regularly during production. If that was really the case, I highly doubt that the original ANH faceplate tusk tubes itself were damaged during shooting. The visible damages on later faceplates/tusk tubes were caused primarily because of the pins on the aluminum tusks, which went into holes trilled into the tusk tube ends. One strong hit on the aluminum tusk, and you may ruin the tusk tube end as well.


Actually, there is damage on the tusk tube ends indicating something affected them as well. One can see this on the original ANH mask later in production and also on the SL ANH. You are right, the original tusks were not attached with any kind of pins or stalks going into the tubes.


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:15 am 
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Why hello there. And what are you doing fighting Obi-Wan thusly with such a fore-shortened tusk tube? Tsk-tsk.

Meet my salvation. :lol

Image

And the change of the right tusk from short early on (the duel was at the beginning of principle photography) to later in the detention cell...

Image

The left tusk...seen from the right....I'm not sure when the Yavin battle was filmed but I assume later on in production than the detention cell? Anyway...behold...

Image

And Yavin (later and longer) vs detention cell (earlier and shorter).....

Image

And the right tusk seen from the left...shorter earlier on in the command room scene, then later and longer on the Tantive IV....

Image

Even if you don't like the three comparisons :lol , there is no denying that first image of Vader early in production with a very short tusk tube end...which looks oddly enough the same length as the cut TD ANH tube end on that side. :whip2


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:44 am 
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TD ANH next to the SL ANH....shot from about 15 feet back with mid-range telephoto.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:57 am 
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Location: Geislingen, Germany
Are there any pics or infos existing from this "other UK-casting". In which possession is this helmet/mask?


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:21 pm 
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Regarding the possible tusk tube length difference: are we still 100% sure that there was only one Vader faceplate used for the shooting of ANH?


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:11 pm 
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Darth Niob wrote:
Are there any pics or infos existing from this "other UK-casting". In which possession is this helmet/mask?


Yes, but not publicly.


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:16 pm 
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vadermania wrote:
Regarding the possible tusk tube length difference: are we still 100% sure that there was only one Vader faceplate used for the shooting of ANH?


Both from what I could tell based on the paint imperfections, etc., yes just the one onscreen. Why the other two helmets did not appear is open to conjecture. I do think we see an second dome during the saber duel scene. But you can see from the saber duel scene onwards a gradual progression in the amount of imperfections in the paint, etc. on the original screen mask.


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:19 pm 
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SithLord wrote:
Darth Niob wrote:
Are there any pics or infos existing from this "other UK-casting". In which possession is this helmet/mask?


Yes, but not publicly.



Any problems to share these pics? When entered this cast the fandom?


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:56 pm 
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The cast has been around for I think the past four years, at least, probably more? But sorry it would be up to the owner to share or talk about it in public. I remember when I got the TD ANH, for I think at least three years I didn't even let people know I had it, partly because I didn't know what I had. When they are ready, they'll discuss it out in the open.


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:01 pm 
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At least it seems some here know this cast very well....some things never change :lol


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:29 am 
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Well I can't speak for anyone else, but it's my job to know. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:46 pm 
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SithLord wrote:
TD ANH next to the SL ANH....shot from about 15 feet back with mid-range telephoto.

Image


Nice pic Thomas, thanks for posting. Looking at the lower tusk tubes of the SL it seems like they are a bit "bumpy" compared to the ones on the TD. There were a few details on the unrestored tusk tubes on my original TM which I thought were a bit strange - on some spots it looked like a thin layer of bondo or paint came off on the original before it was molded. I'll try and post pics later, it's difficult to describe it.


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:01 pm 
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Thomas, I know this could be out of my element, and I haven't studied all the original casts, but I did find this to be a truly cool cast. I didn't realize you had it for almost 10 years.

Reading everything that you were saying about the cast, and a lot of the details that you pointed out I couldn't help but start to ponder its place in the scheme of things.

I started thinking about the black paint job and how many layers of paint, the use of an alternative resin, and the multiple modifications. The mask appears to be at one point equipped with the hardware for the two-piece front and rear set up and then that was abandoned and removed. Then you have the filled in holes at the top near the 3M tabs, the holes in the side that have been filled in, the ends of the tubes having been cut off, the foam inside as if it was actually meant to be worn. Also, the addition to the right side, and lastly the holes drilled in the grille areas.

I started to think about why would this helmet, have all these different things, things added and then removed. I think you're right about the holes being drilled so that someone could breathe. But why go to all the trouble to do such a serious paint job before any of the grills were cut out? And the only thing I can come up with, is a 'mule'. A test mule. a piece used to test all the various options, modifications or ways of doing things that they were considering.

If they did use this helmet try out the two-piece system (which would also explain the foam inside and the holes being drilled so someone could breathe) that would have to make this a fairly early preproduction ANH cast.
I suspect this might have been the piece they used to work out all the bugs. Even the green paint may have been a test.

Truly a fascinating piece. :thumbsup


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 Post subject: Re: TD ANH Vader Mask: Any closer to the source?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:33 pm 
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Thanks, DO, for your thoughts. Yes, that was an original idea that it could have been a test bed, not in the props department, but in the costume department. What I was thinking was is that once it left the mold-makers hands in the prop department, it would have gone to the costume department (John Mollo's department). Brian Muir didn't have any involvement with that department, so what happened to the castings he sculpted after they were cast is something only Mollo could go into, apart from what Brian saw onset. But there's a big gap in our knowledge there. You are right, there are a lot of things that only make sense from the standpoint of someone wanting to test the mask....in terms of fitting, finishing, modifying the tusks or tubes, refining the rear, determining how much undercut is needed to block Prowse's ears from showing under the dome, etc.. Maybe. Even the fact that it is all black and without gunmetal speaks to something early. The masks were originally black and gunmetal added later, and you can tell how the paint is applied to the original that there is black under the gunmetal. So the original screen mask itself was at some point all black.

But it is all just guessing, and not yet definitive provenance.

As far as the prop lady who claims to have gotten this mask from the ANH production, and who worked on the set of ANH, I do know from the guy she gave it to that she worked on a movie back in the late 1960s, and I was able to find out that Stuart Freeborn also worked on that movie, who at that time was working in makeup. So she was clearly in that group of workers at that time who contributed to the motion picture industry in England. It's just a shame that I have not been able to track her down yet.


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