It is currently Thu May 28, 2020 4:00 am

All times are UTC


THE PROP DEN is primarily a Darth Vader Prop Discussion Board, but we also deal with other Star Wars Props as well as Prop Replicas from other movies. If you do not yet have an account, set one up, sign in and jump into the Vader Prop Discussions!


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Enter your Message here
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Don Bies restored helmet
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:46 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:45 am
Posts: 233
Location: Northern California
vadermania wrote:
On the other hand, I was alwas wondering why they didn't switch over completely to the stunt style helmets (perspex cheeks and chin). That would have helped Prowse a lot. On many non-stunt shots in the throne room set in ROTJ the stunt helmet was used. What was the reason for that? I think they used Bob Anderson for those scenes, because Prowse was pretty much out of the game after the press interview where he revealed that Vader dies in ROTJ


More often than not, I think the reason they used that stunt helmet for close ups in ROTJ, was because somebody like Richard Marquand thought it looked cool. Perhaps the reason they didn't use it in ESB was because it just simply wasn't ready yet? It just seems odd, that they would shoot one scene with Vader and nothing for nearly a month. I really think they spent that time reworking the helmets and getting the bugs worked out.


Last edited by Darth Obsession on Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Don Bies restored helmet
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:12 am 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:26 pm
Posts: 644
Location: Dallas, TX, USA
I would have thought for all close-up shots the hero helmet would have been used simply because it looks better, while the stunt helmet would have been relegated for use in action scenes where improved visibility was required. But that wasn't the case.

Instead the stunt helmet was used where it wasn't needed, even in the saga's climactic scene where the Emperor is casting at Luke a final flurry of lighting bolts while Vader contemplates the situation in his dusty stunt helmet with its fat lower lip and monochromatic perspex cheeks. Rather than using the hero helmet maybe someone decided you know, Vader's having a bad day. Put that hero helmet back on the shelf and let's use the stunt helmet to show he's been roughed up a bit. And let's put some more finger smudges on that dome!

Seriously, I wonder if it is as simple as who was playing Vader for a given scene: If Bob Anderson (R.I.P.) was playing Vader, the helmet used was a stunt; if Dave Prowse was playing Vader, the helmet used was a hero.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Don Bies restored helmet
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:56 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:58 pm
Posts: 44
Location: Northern California
SithLord wrote:
It is dome "E", by the way, repainted in June 1992. .


I think the "E" is a "3" in white chalk much like the 5 on the dome of the ESB stunt helmet dome.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Don Bies restored helmet
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:21 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:45 am
Posts: 233
Location: Northern California
Sith-Smith wrote:
SithLord wrote:
It is dome "E", by the way, repainted in June 1992. .


I think the "E" is a "3" in white chalk much like the 5 on the dome of the ESB stunt helmet dome.


That's an AWSOME pic. Got any more of those?


Actually I do think it is an 'E'. First, because it's very square and second because I think if someone was going to write inside the top of the dome, they would do it
as I demonstrate below, in which case the letter would have to be an 'E'.


ImageImage


But actually I think this is a 'B' instead of the letter 'E'.

ImageImage

I have turned the picture upside down and enhanced the area where the letter is. There is a shadow edge that is running through the letter. In pictures, shadow edges are usually darker
than the rest of the shadow. If you look at the letter in the blowups, you can see that the shadow runs right through where the rounded loops of the 'B' would be. You can also see that
the top and bottom of the letter curve inward and there is a distinct 'Y' shape to the center spire of the letter. Look close at the first image, I'd say that's a pretty distinctive 'B'.

Now, what does the 'B' stand for? I have no idea.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Don Bies restored helmet
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:13 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:58 pm
Posts: 44
Location: Northern California
Good point DO!

That demonstration makes sense. After looking at the "5" on the stunt helmet they are different size and style. 3..E or B it would be interesting to get the numbers and letters all matched up for a clear inventory.

-Dwayne


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Don Bies restored helmet
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:17 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:45 am
Posts: 233
Location: Northern California
Yeah, 'cus 'B' doesn't make much sense compared to 1, 2 or 3. Neither did E. That's an interesting picture up in the dome. Kind of confirms what I already expected and that was that Don Bies was going to epoxy the two pieces together. I can see where someone looking at this picture might come up with the idea that that was an 'E' as well, since there appears to be part of an 'E' visible, but that is actually just some of the epoxy dripped and the actual letter is where you can't see it. But again cool pic. Thanks.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Don Bies restored helmet
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:35 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:58 pm
Posts: 44
Location: Northern California
vadermania wrote:
During my visit in the LFL archives at the ranch in 1995 I tried to pair different Vader faceplates and helmets with sometimes funny results. Stuff was constantly mismatched for photo shootings and exhibitions. Only faceplates and domes with the same number fit together because of the individual mounting rings. ROTJ hero faceplates also had numbers written inside.


That's awesome do you recall what the different numbers were and what they looked like?


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Don Bies restored helmet
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:35 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:45 am
Posts: 233
Location: Northern California
Earlier in this thread, I posted this picture, where I identified the facemask in the center rear of the table to be that of the helmet Don Bies restored in 1992.

Image

[quote]Now, take a look at the mask in the middle back. The riser appears to be taller and more vertical than that of the mask to the left, which appears to be shorter and more offset to the left rear.
I believe this center mask is from the Bies helmet. If you look at the Velcro on the forehead of this mask, it is cut fairly wide and the left hand side touches the top of the eyebrow. This feature can be
seen on the Bies helmet in the insert in the upper right corner.

I believe it is at this time that the Don Bies helmet finally got an ESB chin.[/quote]

------

When I posted this I had nothing to go on other than that mounting ring appeared to be very tall and appeared to be inclined forward, especially compared all the other risers I had seen. But recently
Dwayne (aka Sith-Smith) posted this photograph of DB with the helmet prior to the mask and dome being connected. And I would say that it is very much a dead on match to that facemask in the rear
center of the table.

ImageImage

I strongly believe that the helmets sitting on this table, are not new helmets created specifically for touring, but are in fact all of the original ESBs after being modified to more closely resemble ROTJ helmets,
except for the stunt helmet (which due to its unique nature could not be used). The helmet in the upper right corner is a dead ringer for ROTJ #1, which is the only helmet I could verify was fully converted for
ROTJ screen use. All the others just saw varying degrees of modifications like those pictured below.

Image

I do not believe that any tour helmets, actually had this ring style riser, in fact, I suspect that this is the only helmet that ever did. I suspect the idea that touring helmets used to this sort of ring
was actually based on this picture. I also believe this helmet, was the helmet that was sourced to Don Post studios as the master for the DP deluxe as well as another helmet that was used for most
of the Special Editions movie tie-ins. All of which have the exact same funky positioning of the dome as the original ANH grilled Hoth helmet.

ImageImage


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Don Bies restored helmet
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:11 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:45 am
Posts: 233
Location: Northern California
Sith-Smith wrote:
Good point DO!

That demonstration makes sense. After looking at the "5" on the stunt helmet they are different size and style. 3..E or B it would be interesting to get the numbers and letters all matched up for a clear inventory.

-Dwayne


ROTJ #3 also has a number 3 inside the facemask. But I haven't seen up inside of the other helmets only guessing at what numbers inside them.

Image


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Don Bies restored helmet
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:34 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:45 am
Posts: 233
Location: Northern California
Darth Obsession wrote:
Sith-Smith wrote:
SithLord wrote:
It is dome "E", by the way, repainted in June 1992. .


I think the "E" is a "3" in white chalk much like the 5 on the dome of the ESB stunt helmet dome.


That's an AWSOME pic. Got any more of those?


Actually I do think it is an 'E'. First, because it's very square and second because I think if someone was going to write inside the top of the dome, they would do it
as I demonstrate below, in which case the letter would have to be an 'E'.


ImageImage

But actually I think this is a 'B' instead of the letter 'E'.

ImageImage

I have turned the picture upside down and enhanced the area where the letter is. There is a shadow edge that is running through the letter. In pictures, shadow edges are usually darker
than the rest of the shadow. If you look at the letter in the blowups, you can see that the shadow runs right through where the rounded loops of the 'B' would be. You can also see that
the top and bottom of the letter curve inward and there is a distinct 'Y' shape to the center spire of the letter. Look close at the first image, I'd say that's a pretty distinctive 'B'.

Now, what does the 'B' stand for? I have no idea.


I have decided to retract portions of this post to this thread. While I still stand behind my method and the conclusion I came up with, they were unfortunately based on a photo, which I now know has been altered.
While the photos are not my possession, so I do not have the ability to post them here, I have seen higher resolution images, including the picture with Don Bies that clearly shows the letter inside the top of the dome, is the letter 'E'.

I want to state that I do not believe Dwayne (Sith-Smith) had anything to do with this deception, as he in no way ever suggested that the letter was a 'B' and seems genuinely interested in what the letters or numbers in the helmets actually mean.

I do not know at what point this photo was altered, but I do think it's very sad that such things take place. From a historical point of view, it is appalling.

-----
John


Last edited by Darth Obsession on Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Don Bies restored helmet
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:58 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:58 pm
Posts: 44
Location: Northern California
I don't see why someone would alter a photo like this. Seems silly to me because what's to gain from it? I saw the photo on the proparchives.com searching under Empire props it's right there along with other pictures from the auction.

-Dwayne


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Don Bies restored helmet
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:52 pm 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:58 am
Posts: 10687
Location: Denmark
rescaling and jpeg artifacts may play a role in distortion. Also, if the auctioneer provided altered shots, for whatever reason, that could also explain it. There are many reasons for altering auction shots - especially of real deal items.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Don Bies restored helmet
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:22 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:26 pm
Posts: 644
Location: Dallas, TX, USA
If the entire inside of the dome was repainted (not sure if it was), then any original lettering or numbering would be painted over. Maybe the B stands for "Bies."


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Don Bies restored helmet
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:50 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:45 am
Posts: 233
Location: Northern California
I would like to make one last note in regards to this helmet.

I know people are hesitant to actually say that something is or isn't this or that. However, this isn't the case of production original against a possible recast. We are talking about two helmets from the Lucasfilm archives.
Two helmets that I believe are one and the same.


Image

Both of these helmets have the same defect or error in the dome positioning.
The domes are not simply slid or tipped forward, as anyone aware of how the mounting rings work should know that this is not possible as the rings prevent lateral movement. They are in fact
incorrectly mounted. The mounting rings determine the position of the dome, the Velcro on the forehead is simply to stabilize the dome and keep it from shifting around.The ring mount on the
Bies helmet is taller and much more straight up and down compared to the typical mounts on most helmets. I did the diagram below to illustrate what I'm talking about. I made helmets, semi
transparent so you could see not only their relationship to each other, but their relationship to their mounting systems. Despite the original belief that the helmet is tipped forward, the leading
edge of the dome is in the correct position and lines up the same as a properly mounted dome. However, due to the error in the mount the back center of the dome rests an inch and a half or
3.9 cm higher than the normal position.


Image


This is not an ROTJ thing. The helmet is too high in the back. ROTJ's did not raise the back of the helmet, they raised the entire helmet vertically nearly 1/4 inch or 8 mm, but it's orientation to
the facemask stayed the same.


Image

No. The dome positioning on the Hoth Rebel Command Center helmet was a mistake. It wasn't specially positioned for some purpose, it was simply a mistake. And the fact that you never see it again
in the film is a testament to that fact. It was only worn in the very first scene filmed with Vader and that was it.

On the subject of the Bies chin grille, while it may not be the ANH style that was on the Hoth helmet, it is also not consistent with any ESB or ROTJ chin grills either. As I said before, the actual grille lattice is much larger than either ESB or ROTJ, but is similar to that of the MOTM helmet.
However, the size of the triangle opening is also too small. If you look at the pictures below, you can see on the Bies helmet, that the width of the opening is somewhat narrower than the width of the five teeth slots above,whereas on the helmets to the right, an ESB hero and the MOTM,
the width of the chin grille opening clearly falls outside of the teeth on both sides. The depth of the opening also falls somewhere in between a hero and an action, but is not similar to any other helmet, ESB, or ROTJ.
This very strongly suggest that this grill opening was added to the helmet and that no real attempt was made to make sure it was consistent with the other openings on other helmets.

ImageImageImage


And I don't think it takes a NASA engineer to see that the dome positioning is identical on these two helmets. Not just close, identical. And despite the ANH grille and the ROTJ center strip, which, like
almost every other ESB got reworked to some extent, in almost every other way, these two helmets are identical.

Lastly,

Don Bies, a Lucasfilm employee, repainted this helmet for LFL, which is reported to be an authentic production helmet from the Lucasfilm archives. Obviously, the helmet used in the Hoth rebel command center scene,
is also an authentic production helmet, both helmets have the exact same incorrect positioning of the domes. Having seen the higher resolution images of the mounting system before and after Don Bies put them together,
I can tell you he made no modifications. They appear just as they did back in 1983. All he did was epoxy the rings together. And on Duane's post below, one of these pictures shows where he did this.

Sith-Smith wrote:
Good point DO!

That demonstration makes sense. After looking at the "5" on the stunt helmet they are different size and style. 3..E or B it would be interesting to get the numbers and letters all matched up for a clear inventory.

-Dwayne


The helmet being mounted this way was a mistake. Do we really, really believe that Lucasfilm would actually let it happen again? How many helmets like this do we think are floating around the LFL archives?

------
John


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: On the subject of the Don Bies restored helmet
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:18 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:45 am
Posts: 233
Location: Northern California
I've talked a lot about assumptions, probably to the point of annoying some people, and for that I apologize. I have no desire to annoy or offend anyone, only to open eyes. Obviously we all make assumptions, including myself.
The problem is they often keep us from looking beyond the obvious, or the apparent. We see Kenny Baker standing inside a prominent feature of the Hoth command center set wearing an ESB helmet with an
ANH chin grille. The obvious assumption is, that it is the same helmet used in the scene. And why not? It's got an ANH chin grille. Right?

Image

On the Christies-PIH 2012 thread arguments were put forward that the facemask owned by Ron Punter might be a better match for the Hoth command center helmet based on comparion with the image of Kenny Baker on the set, starting with a post by Lambotour.

Lambotour wrote:
Thanks for the pics Mark. Excellent quality. This faceplate deserves its own thread, but I don't believe that is an ESB faceplate. That appears to be a faceplate taken from a RB mold or family thereof. There are several features that do not add up to ESB, but point more towards ANH. I won't get into specifics because we all know we've had enough debates about these things over the years, so I'll leave it at that and, of course, it's just my opinion. It's still an awesome faceplate. It was a little tough to get these screencaps just right, but the only possibility I see of it being screenused in ESB would be this one:

Image

In my opinion, there are a few details that match up. Nothing truly concrete, but some good similarities. The chin vent does seem a tad small for ESB. The positioning and height of the attachment ring would seem to be consistent with the difference in height and position of the dome in the Hoth scene.

In addition, I also see these few things that also seem to match up:

Image

Image

The missing paint on the side of the nose, but it could also be reflection of the light:

Image

Image

Image

and the neck shape seems to be a good match, although I admit the screencaps aren't the highest quality to say for certain:

Image

Again, nothing that is a 100% slam dunk, but pretty close from what I can tell. Thanks again for the pics.


Lambotour has a good eye and he definitely pointed out some solid connections between the Ron Punter helmet and the one being worn by Kenny Baker.

And while some items are fairly common, such as the chips on the eye brow and center of the forehead, the Bies helmet has these as well, others were a little more interesting and definitely required further study.

ImageImage

Lambotour's analysis of the side of the nose is nicely done, but I think we are actually looking at a light reflection, as top edge the black paint of the cheek seems to continue beyond the Punter's termination point toward the front of the nose.
Admittedly, with lighting and such it is difficult to say.

However, Lambotour's chip in the edge of the whisker, is absent from the Don Bies helmet, but is also not seen on the screen cap images, only the Kenny Baker image. The bulge in the eye is distinctive and consistent in both images , but again, I see no sign of it in the
screen cap images. Like in the Baker and Punter images, light reflections are distorted around this bulge, the screen cap lens shows no such 'bulge' distortion in the ceiling lights reflected.

ImageImage


Despite this, I must admit, that the more I look at the images of the Kenny Baker helmet and the Ron Punter helmet, I can't help but be struck by the similarities in the facemasks that go even beyond what Lambotour pointed out.
Which might seem to make a valid argument for the Punter helmet being the Hoth helmet. But there is several problems, besides the missing eye bulge, the screen caps show what looks like some impact marks on the top and outer edge of the right cheek.
They are in more than one frame and do not change location relative to the cheek face, so they are not something on the film. There also appears to be a curved scrape(?) between them. The Kenny Baker image has no such marks, nor does the Ron punter helmet.
However, the Don Bies helmet has a chip in the paint right at the cheek's edge location and a small divot at the top. Since the helmet was repainted the mark in between is not visible.

Take another look at the 'screen cap' images below. The chin grille on the 'Hoth' is cut too high. It is only just over half the distance it should be from the bottom of the bridge between the tusks. Kenny's grille is correctly located.
So, while they both have ANH style chin grills, the grills are not in the same location. The punter ESB grill is also correctly located and shaped, whereas the Bies grill is also high and somewhat small for an ESB.

Image
ImageImageImage

Also,

When Lamotour used the frontal shot 'screen cap', I noticed some further similarities to the Bies helmet. Admittedly the pic is not sharp and has a strong horizontal motion ghosting so I don't like using it, but I feel
these items can still be seen. First as a note, I see no indication of the 'eye bulge' in this image either, it seems to have the regular shape seen in all other helmets. Next, the cut of the bottom lip of the dome has
similarities in the inner edges to that of the Bies dome, although the distance difference in the pics distorts this some and the Bies may have been cleaned up some. Next, a large chip in the paint at the front base
of the neck straight below ,the chin grill can be seen on Lambotour's image and a similar chip can be found in the same location on the Bies helmet.

Image

Also,

I doubt very seriously that they would have let Kenny wear that helmet prior to using it in a scene and it already has most of the damage seen in the Punter helmet images. However it lacks damage seen in the screen caps.
NOTE: Since the helmet worn by Kenny Baker is not correctly mounted and just hanging together by the Velcro, there is no way to know if the dome did or did not have the same high-rise back end as the screen helmet.

Image



And I know somebody reading this right now is saying, 'Oh, so what, now you're saying that these are two different helmets?'



I used to think these were the same helmets. After all, Perspex cheeks, Perspex neck, very distinctive ROTJ appearance. This is an extremely complex helmet, there can't be more than one. Right?
So I assumed they were the same helmet, but they are not. As brought to my attention by Vadermonkey they are duplicates.
Image

So, yes. Lambotour has correctly identified Ron Punter's helmet as the one worn by Kenny Baker on the Hoth CC set. But that does not mean that it is the same helmet worn by David Prowse on screen.
In fact, for me, it further illustrates that the Bies helmet is.

One of the biggest arguments against the Bies being the 'Hoth CC' is chin grille and center strip on the dome seeming to be ROTJ, as Vadermania reported:

vadermania wrote:

According to Ron Punter, painter of the OT Vader helmets at Elstree paint shop, most of the remaining Vader helmets from ESB were reworked for use in ROTJ. He sanded, bondoed and repainted them (plus other Vader hardware) in person in his shop. And I've seen pics from that time proving that. Punter has one original ESB faceplate in his personal collection which wasn't repainted for ROTJ.

Screen-used original Vader lids were reworked / repainted at different occasions by ILM guys. One of the main ROTJ vader faceplates was outfitted with larger velcro straps - I have pics of that process actually.

Punter's helmet clearly illustrates how original helmets can be and were modified. It is clearly a solid match for the helmet worn by Kenny Baker on the set, yet it now has an ESB style chin grille and an alteration to the base of the neck.

The assumption has been that there was only one ESB helmet with an ANH chin grille. And I get that it is a logical assumption.

But this was very early on in the production of ESB. The assumption has been that Vader's new appearance in the film was set in stone, way before the cameras ever rolled and
the new, larger chin grille was part of that new appearance. But I don't think so, I think it was still evolving. I believe there were two helmets, and that these were amongst the
earliest helmets made and as such still exhibited some ANH details.

If you look at the inner, front facing lip of the Bies dome, especially on the left side,(ignore the green arrows) it is wider and much more like an ANH than what it seen on other ESB helmets.

Image


So my bottom line,

I feel Lambotour is correct about Ron Punter's helmet being the helmet worn by Kenny Baker on the set. The bulge in the eye is very distinctive, identical and not seen on any other helmet,
as well as having the same chips in the paint, there is also an unusual shape to the lower right corner of the triangle mouth opening that is evident in both of Lambotour's pics.

I do not believe the Kenny Baker helmet is the helmet used in the Hoth command center scene with Prowse. There is no sign of the distinctive bulge in the eye of the Hoth CC Vader.
With the exception of the ANH chin grills (which are not consistently located) and being photographed in the same location, the two helmets have no common special details.

I still believe the Don Bies helmet is a perfect match to the Hoth CC Vader. The only difference is the chin grille (which is not consistent with ANY other helmet, but the Hoth CC chin grille is not consistent either)
and the ROTJ style dome center strip, both of which could easily have been modified by ILM as the Punter face mask also demonstrated. Besides the obvious dome mounting, Both helmets also have similar
chips in the paint at matching locations.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Blue Moon by Trent © 2007
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Hosted by Freeforum.ca, get your free forum now! TOS | Support Forums | Report a violation
buy web visitors
MultiForums powered by echoPHP phpBB MultiForums