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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 7:12 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:17 am
Posts: 12
OK, now you're really confusing me. It has resin on it in the pic? The resin has been removed? It's in a stage of resin removal? There is or isn't photoshop done to the pic to remove certain details?

See the dilemma, all circling that one stupid pic.

On a different note, if someone needs to sell their TM lid what happens? Is it agreed that it goes back to Vadermania? Or does he have to have approval rights on the new owner? Is there a blood test involved? :eek


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 7:13 am 
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But, as the first post stated, let's try to have a grown-up discussion and not resort to flaming comments. Keep it real and keep it to the point.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 8:04 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:15 am
Posts: 178
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Well, I've been out of the Vader world for a long time now and I suggested to a friend that we should study Vader some more and get familiar with the current accurate casts... I got an email from him telling me that his head assploded, I had to get my wife to read the email, 'cause my head assploded too...

Keep it up guys, I'm enjoying the education... Thanks!

Cheers,

Kraig


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 8:06 am 
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Fantastic post! Thank you!

CSMacLaren wrote:
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I would like to open this thread for open, friendly discussion on the C-scar. I have no interest in popular prop politics over this matter, and so I ask that, if at all possible, we focus strictly on academic discussion. I know this will be a challenge because anything I've said so far on the matter on another board has been vilified and accused of sinister motivation, but I feel it's about time to discuss a closely guarded truth about the screenused ANH Vader mask, and perhaps the community can heal from this unnecessary division just a little.

One of the reasons why this has not been widely known is, basically, unavailability. There were two (official) or more molds (perhaps official or unofficial) taken off of the original screen-used ANH Vader at different stages of its tenure - a UK mold (from which the actual production masks for ESB and ROTJ came), and a US mold (which provided the tour and promotional helmets). As I'm writing this quickly from memory, if I make mistakes, send me a PM instead of replying, so I can edit Post #1 of this thread so that people don't have to scroll down to read any corrections.

Click on a thumbnail image to expand:

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It is important to note that there are differences between the US and UK mold. They were taken at different stages of the mask's existence. The UK mold was taken towards or at the end of the production of ANH, where all the glorious details of this scene can be seen - dings, paint drips, hairline-thin phenomenon - right down to the very paint brush strokes. The famous Tantive IV scene (click on the above thumbnail) was filmed, ironically, at the end of the production, even though it was at the beginning. The TM facemask is dubbed by owners "TM ANH" because (1) the chin triangle is the original-sized small ANH configuration) and (2) it reflects the plethora of splendid detail.

The US mold - now more known as the "Rick Baker Mold" - is different. There are structural characteristics that distinguish it from the UK-mold descended screen-used production masks. It is believed to have been made at a time when the screen-used ANH Vader had been cleaned up. We do know that when Kermit Eller was touring with the screen-used suit, there is photographic evidence of surface dings and details such as the "C-scar". Photographic evidence includes the Don Post Studios outdoor photos as well as the Corbis tour photos.

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(Above: Corbis photo. Kermit Eller dons the screen-used Vader)

There was a point in time, however, that the screen-used itself may have been repainted. Vader had a more pristine appearance seen in "Chronicles", at the Chinese theater, and other public venues.

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(Above: the "Chronicles" Shots)

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(Above: a Chinese theater appearance with a more pristine paint job).

If indeed the Chronicles is *THE* screen-used that had been repainted, you will note from the Chronicles shots that some of the textural detail is gone due to the new paint work. However, given the film grain and loss of detail, some detail may simply not showing up due to the sensitivity of the silver-halide film. There may be some who doubt that this is THE screen-used and is, instead, a copy. If a copy, then comes the question whether the copy was from the US (tour) or UK (production) mold, as the structural characteristics of the Chronicles mask that do not appear on masks that come from the US (tour) mold, which would indicate the Chronicles mask is not a tour copy but the original. However, that discussion is for another time, as this is just an intro.

What is the "C" scar? I called it a "C" scar because it roughly looks like a letter "C" depending upon how that structure is catching lighting. It is structurally like a ledge or cliff (think topological geography). Depending on the light direction and how much light it manages to pick up, camera angle, etc., it could be interpreted as a "J" or even an "S".

The erroneous assumption is that it was a painted detail. If so, that makes no sense. First, the ANH Vader mask was originally completely black. When it was determined by the film crew that the pitch-black mask's surface details were not getting picked up, it was decided to have alternating facets of Vader's face painted with metallic gray. Most viewers regarded these as light reflections and never noticed they were "helped" by brighter paint. The metallic gray paint was done as a rush job. Although Lucas did call for a lived-in look and there was intentional weathering done to the mask, the actual weathering was sparse throughout the costume. You can see paint drips on the original, evidenced by paint drips on the TM in correlating positions. Props back in that day were not always done to pristine fashion. Most of the time, the characters are moving, and usually people are shocked at all the imperfections when they manage to see the actual prop in person. If the purpose of the paint was primarily to make the facial surfaces more visible to the camera, and that most people seeing Star Wars for the first time in 1977 barely noticed the paint brush strokes, is there any logic to the supposition that the "C" scar was painted with metallic gray paint? Is such a supposition supported by any photos or screenshots?

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(Above: TM ANH facemask, courtesy of Trap Joe)

The "C" scar nature has to be understood from the perspective of how lighting direction can affect how you study mountain formations in topographical photos. The illumination of light or the darkening by shadows cast by objects can cause people to misinterpret what they are seeing (e.g. the famous "Mars Face" photos).

Here is how the C-scar compares against the screen-used. Here is pic of my TM of that area of the faceplate, positioned over a screen capture of the original. It's not a perfect overlay. I'm using a $250 consumer camera lens that is hardly the same caliber, diameter and quality as the original Panavision camera and therefore I cannot match a full-face overlay perfectly due to the different lenses handling close-distance perspective distortion differently.

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and, here's a control image:

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So there we go! Let the friendly discussions begin! :thumbsup


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 8:32 am 
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great thread, guys!!!
Good work CS :toothy :thumbsup


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 8:34 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:56 pm
Posts: 1264
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Jodi wrote:
great thread, guys!!!
Good work CS :toothy :thumbsup


Absolute!!!Thank's for this beatiful review!!! :thumbsup
To show the truth is always fantastic :lol


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 8:56 am 
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CSMacLaren wrote:
It's interesting that despite my having posted on the RPF about this thread, people aren't coming over to examine the hi-res photos here but are instead speaking with authority that the scar is a paint job.

One argument states that because the lighting is coming from the left (see below) and the scar is visible, it therefore must be paint.

Image

However, I set up a Darth Ugly facemask and used a studio lamp. I managed to approximate the shadow angle, size and degree of blur. The light source of the left photo is not from the left side, but is more in-line with the camera - possibly a little off to the left, but not the far left by a long shot. Thus, I say the argument is incorrect.


I am the one who posted that argument. I still haven't seen any pic taken with the same light and an aproximate angle (the same angle at 100% is almost impossible) where the C-Scar is shown whithout it being painted. The one you posted next to the original one doesn't show the C-Scar. Why?

BTW, I'm sorry I haven't posted before...


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 9:21 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:15 am
Posts: 178
Location: Melbourne, Australia
KaanE wrote:
CSMacLaren wrote:
(the same angle at 100% is almost impossible)


Ain't that the truth! (at least for me, most of the time I end up walking away and grabbing a beer)

Cheers,

Kraig


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 11:29 am 
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KaanE wrote:
I am the one who posted that argument. I still haven't seen any pic taken with the same light and an aproximate angle (the same angle at 100% is almost impossible) where the C-Scar is shown whithout it being painted. The one you posted next to the original one doesn't show the C-Scar. Why?

He set up one of his own work projects, not a TM.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 2:46 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:26 am
Posts: 1239
Other than Tom, Joerg and Jesper, the original TM has been seen and handled by Eric (Slasher X), Mike (Vadermonkey) and myself. The TM is quite heavy and to be honest has a rather weird old smell to it based on it's age. When looking at the faceplate from the inside, you can clearly see it's a bit aged. How many years, I have no idea.

All the details you see here in this thread and many others across the Den are all on the original TM faceplate. If anything, Jesper removed certain artifacts and details that I wish he had left on. In his quest to try and uncover the true base laying, there were ceratin sacrifices that were done. However, if he hadn't really been commited, then the TM would have looked like it does in those 1st stage pics that are being posted on the rpf now. For that, I thank Jesper for his diligence in uncovering the truth.

I recently posted some pics for the TM owners of the original with some other of the other castings. They will agree that the details you see here are also on the original. Posting pics of the original, which by the way has already been done numerous times, will prove nothing. The new argument will be that the original TM was altered, blah, blah, blah. I can assure you it's not. That is coming from someone who had hands on experience with it, not someone who claims to know something about it based on pictures.

I wasn't too happy about this thread being posted or the size of the pics being offered. Some of my TM brothers feel differently and that's ok, we don't need ti agree on that. There isn't a faceplate out there as authentic as the TM that has been posted with nice clear pictures and with the information that accompanied those pics. Raw pics of the original TM have been posted numerous times and specific details pics have been posted by me plenty of times. I think the TM guys have been very open with regards to the TM in both pics and information. And as Carsten stated, A LOT of info has been gathered from it. It's really a shame, that even now, that same willingness to show pics and give out accurate information is being used as an attack on it. This is why we don't ever make any progress with vader threads. The same people making the same wild assumption based on incorrect information and stating it as fact. In the end though, as I just proved on the rpf, all it takes is time to realize who is full of hot air.

* I stand corrected in regards to the photoshopped image. There had been several pics that had been posted at one time that were photoshopped as Mac explained that he was asked to do. Since that pic didn't have the C scar yet, I assumed it was one of the PS pics. I aksed Tom to go on the forums for clarification on a few points and I'm glad he did.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 6:04 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:33 pm
Posts: 490
Well done. For people like myself who prior to these threads, were only vaguely educated on the TM helmet, I say thank you. I have learned more about the validity and the quality of the TM helmet for the very first time. I'm sure, with all my contacts in the Vader world, I had better than a casual knowledge of this helmet, yet you guys (Pete and Vadermania), schooled me in a very methodical and no nonsense way. I know I am not the only guy involved that feel this way either. I will admit that I did not previously feel impressed with the TM up until the point that I got to hold the one Pete brought to CV, yet that altered my perception quite a bit. This last couple of days however stepped up my opinions of both the TM, SL and the DJ helmets. For the first time, I see the entire background history on these fantastic pedigree helmets (eFX included), and it actually makes logical sense of all of it. I let the differences between UK helmets and US helmets keep me in the fog, until the process that Baker put that screen helmet thru for the purposes of doing promotional photo shoots and public appearances.........filled in the "missing link" for me. For the first time I have reconciled all these bits of the puzzle in a meaningful way. For me, that is quite remarkable considering how long I have studied these things. Now I am simply yearning for a TM and an SL. I won't feel like my collection addresses the whole truth until it contains both in it. :)

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 6:16 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:57 am
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Great pics!!! I'm lovin' this TM mask. GRANTED - I don't follow along with nearly the detailed attention that everyone else pays. I was like that years ago before the internet and had to have my brain chemistry altered. Didn't work really - areas of alleviated obsession just moved sideways into other things so that was a wash.

And next time I'll incorporate a doctor into the process.

Beyond that, it is great to see what that C scar friggin' is after all this time. So very cool. Wow.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 6:34 pm 
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Yeah, sorry for the long wait. We had an agreement to uphold + extensive talks about how much to post about it. I'm sure most people will understand that it was a long haul, because we never really wanted to lord it over everyone, which is also one of the reasons we rarely showed off the helmets... also because not many of us have painted ours yet and the deal was always to keep it to posting pictures of finished helmets... which again delayed things... but again... we had a differing perspective to what was being posted, so the big question was always whether we should keep our mouths shut or what. Guess some people don't like that we talked.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 8:59 pm 
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Location: San Jose, CA
I shared this over on RPF, but basically, guys, you have to understand what the online culture was like before we got our TMs.

There was a lot of superior posturing and cyber-bulling. Everyone wanted or claimed to have the best. And those who made themselves the elite would lord it over the little people, beat them over the head, and treat them very poorly.

Tom Mullack is a very kind, generous, softspoken and well mannered human being. He saw the situation for what it is, and decided that it would be nice for the little people to have something nice for a change.

For whatever reason he contacted me for a casting back in March 2007, I'll never know. Perhaps he felt sorry that I had bad luck, vendor after vendor, being misled and taken down a costly path. The TM turned things around and put us on a path of dreams.

I was very pleased to learn that most of the people Tom had also reached out to were people who kindly shared knowledge and information openly.

However, as Carsten put it, we were sworn to secrecy. I was asked to photoshop out any C-scar out of photos that might be used in a public forum, and to keep the images small and obscure (this was widely done at the time because the online culture had personalities that constantly ripped people off or robbed or plagiarized them). Jesper believed that if the C-scar information got into Gino's hands, he'd either add that to his Vader, or use it to bully fans into acknowledging his supremacy over the fandom.

Looking back, however, I feel we were too secretive. The agreement bound us so tightly that we did not become the anti-bullying squad I had hoped we could become, so that the online culture could become a friendlier place.

The problem with this culture is that many people share - you get knowledge or receive images contingent upon your confidentiality agreement with the person sharing things with you. I did not create this culture. Many of us simply inherited it from long-timers. And long timers had to become secretive because of betrayals and people wanting to be the overlords over fans.

Gino knows we have a confidentiality code, so he calls us out knowing we can't respond, so uses our silence against us. Then we take this crap until we can't take it any more, and unfortunately when we do respond, it's because we're totally pissed off at his agenda going off like a runaway train, and our moral conviction to see it stopped takes over our confidentiality agreement.


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 Post subject: Re: The TM ANH facemask and the C-scar.
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 9:21 pm 
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It is hilarious how those guys are so scrambling to bash bash bash anyone speaking in disagreement with gino and his camp. I've truly never seen them hopping around so fast..LOL. They will spend the next week solidifying their stance, patting each other on the ass which is fantastic considering it will be that much harder if they get in a situation one day down the road where they can't simply backpedal. The real Vader guys are just a bunch of Prop Den trouble makers now.....LOL. Please don't waste time considering what you could have said or done differently and possibly have turned the tide. It's pointless considering the owner of the RPF and his continuous protection of the crybaby gina.

I never realized what a bunch of gino bashing, heartless, trouble making ass wipes you TM guys really are....LOL. I'm sure glad I know ya and am proud to call you guys my friends.

While I'm at it, you're all a bunch of Den-enites too. What the fuck is wrong with you???? :)

Dave


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