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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:01 pm 
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That SPFX faceplate....actually looks like a DP deluxe derivative now that I look more closely. I dont think it's the faceplate he's been selling on ebay. I can tell by the curvature of the slant of the bridge of the nose and the softness of the nose and teeth profile. Also the neck profile. The DP deluxe is VP sized...that would explain the discrepancy.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:49 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:45 pm 
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Well, Clutch, you are so smart then let's hear your point of view.

Otherwise can it.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:25 pm 
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Let's keep this appropriate please - good discussion so far, I'd hate to see it go south.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:00 pm 
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Since it takes ~ 1.5 minutes between page refreshes here, I thought a funny image would summarize what I'm thinking. :lol It's just that forever, I've heard you say that the jb and spfx are from the same origins and now that these photos appear, you change your story. If you claim that these are moving targets, then how can you say anything about their origins? I've seen jb & spfx first hand and they aren't similiar at all.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:32 pm 
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Thomas -
The SPFX I own is a year and a half old - no way it's derived from a DP.
I'm 100% about this.
It's also the same type as the version that you used to own - I have a photo of it.
I really don't think it would be possible for Phil to make his helmets larger except with filler primer - they'd just be enormous soft blobs if he used this method.
As far as the size issue is concerned we're not talking millimetre's, we're talking tenths of millimetre's...

You can see some of the features on the VP that appears on the SPFX;

Image


The VP, DP and SPFX are the same size - give or take tenths of millimetre's

If anyone wants to PM me a single measurement from the biggest helmet I'd be happy to confirm the VP is undersized.


Last edited by AnsonJames on Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:07 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:36 pm 
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clutch wrote:
I've seen jb & spfx first hand and they aren't similiar at all.

I tend to agree here, though, I have only had the SPFX in hand, so may be impaired in my opinion... but from the pictures I've seen of the two, both the faces and the dome has special details that set the two apart and makes them distinguishable from each other. However, that says nothing about whether they share the same source or not: only that the end result is significantly different.

Though, it seems that either the SPFX helmets change size for whatever reasons - shrinking molds, new masters used, new un-shrinking silicone used, or whatever - but I must admit that I don't know for sure what his source(s) is/are. All I know is; that there are differences between the casts.

I agree that having handled both the SPFX and the JB V2 and possibly also a 20th C face and a GH dome would make any opinions I have more valid, as three dimensional objects are far more valuable to study and make educated guessed about than pictures.

Hope we can keep things pleasant and keep in mind that we are here to discuss and share opinions and be educated... and even though the opinions may not suit you or me or anyone else, we should try to counter them in an orderly fashion.

I forgot myself in one of these skirmishes of words and turned it into something personal. We are all humans and can make mistakes and I'll admit I'm no saint, but felt really ashamed, still. I'm posting a little again... but still trying to keep a low profile.

These comparisons are pretty interesting, though didn't expect that the VP was comparable in size to the DP DLX.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:06 am 
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The longer we can discuss the VP in a friendly manner, the longer this thread will go on.
We'll hopefully learn something...

I was surprised the VP wasn't a humongous faceplate too.

I do think it points to the fact that the size of Vader helmets is irrelevant - I think it's the details we should be concerned with!

More photos as soon as I we get some decent weather...


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:30 pm 
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clutch wrote:
Since it takes ~ 1.5 minutes between page refreshes here, I thought a funny image would summarize what I'm thinking. :lol It's just that forever, I've heard you say that the jb and spfx are from the same origins and now that these photos appear, you change your story. If you claim that these are moving targets, then how can you say anything about their origins? I've seen jb & spfx first hand and they aren't similiar at all.


Ok....all in good humor then. Thanks for clarifying.

No I don't mean that they are from a different source...not sure how you got that. I've had both a JB V2 and an SPFX both early versions...among the first casting these guys made...and they are nearly identical in size and features...and are both derived from the 20th Century faceplate. Both JB and Phil had 20th Cs in their possession. So I'm not sure what you mean by me saying they are from different origins. I don't know which SPFX you saw maybe a later version...he modified the neck, introduced fake details, etc. I'll post photos of that helmet I had at some point so you guys can tell me if it's like the SPFX you've had in hand because the SPFX I had was one of his first castings...very early on.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:41 pm 
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AnsonJames wrote:
he size issue is concerned we're not talking millimetre's, we're talking tenths of millimetre's...

You can see some of the features on the VP that appears on the SPFX;

Image


The VP, DP and SPFX are the same size - give or take tenths of millimetre's

If anyone wants to PM me a single measurement from the biggest helmet I'd be happy to confirm the VP is undersized.


Yes the size differences are very small. But again it's probable that the early SPFX I had was smaller for some reason. But again, it's the same size as the 20th C. Give me the width using calipers to 10th millimeter of the cheeks on the masks you show and then I can say if it's the same or not as the SPFX I had.

The SPFX feature you show on the rear upper tube is shallower and softer like the 20th C. I will have to check the 20th C there to be sure however. If the 20th C doesn't have that feature then it was introduced on the SPFX like the nosebridge notch was introduced by SPFX once I pointed out to him on RPF that his mask didn't have that feature and he introduced it on his later versions, just like he expanded the neck so it would fit on the armor opening like it's supposed to.

So I wouldn't say from those features they are the same...not by a long shot. I know all about features like that and if they are not the same depth and sharpness as in that case then you can't say they are from the same source. The SPFX came from the 20th C which came from a promotional helmet which came from an original ESB (or the original 20th Cs were tour helmets themselves). That's a long way down from ANH and explains why the 20th C faceplates are smaller...consistently smaller...and identical in size to the SPFX. I have measurements of like three 20th C and three or four SPFXs from over the years and the numbers agree. So I don't know why in this case your VP is smaller than the SPFX....


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:48 pm 
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AnsonJames wrote:

I do think it points to the fact that the size of Vader helmets is irrelevant - I think it's the details we should be concerned with!




Well believe that if you like. But then you are left out when it comes to being able to determine where a helmet comes from or how close it is to an original ESB or ANH. There are different size classes. The 20th C and related faceplates (JBV2, SPFX), the GH/Fyberdyne, the TM/DarthJones, and the originals....all in distinct categories and related to one another by lineage. The VP is ROTJ era even though it's an ANH faceplate...so it's size is a product of coming from that era. The VP is smaller than the TM. It's size in relation to the SPFX might be secondary here, but at least in terms of the early SPFXs, it's larger and equal in size to the GH master, for example. But the GH master is smaller than the TM of course. The DP deluxe is a reasonable size and larger than the early SPFXs. It's just strange that the SPFX you show is so much softer than the other recent ones he's shown on Ebay....

Where I do agree with you is that the details are very important and the extent to which they are retained says a lot about how close the casting is to the original....but I guess a lot of you know that already after having had a TM in hand....


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:20 pm 
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SithLord,

So the TM is from an ESB era, and the VP is from a ROTJ era?

And both are ANH faceplates?

Do you feel they look the same or do you feel they're from different molds based on the size difference? How would you explain the size difference?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:21 pm 
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SithLord wrote:
There are different size classes. The 20th C and related faceplates (JBV2, SPFX), the GH/Fyberdyne, the TM/DarthJones, and the originals....all in distinct categories and related to one another by lineage.


Which class would the Don Post Deluxe be classified in?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:00 pm 
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CSMacLaren wrote:
SithLord,

So the TM is from an ESB era, and the VP is from a ROTJ era?

And both are ANH faceplates?

Do you feel they look the same or do you feel they're from different molds based on the size difference? How would you explain the size difference?



By the way here is my previous post from another thread here of the size relationships:

Here's a short list of relevant helmets from largest to smallest based on cheek width. All measurements with calipers and accurate to 1/10th of a millimeter. Sorry I won't provide the actual measurements as requested by certain owners. But this is the ranking at least. Other features such as crown width, height etc will vary much more with the pull but lateral warpage of the face is less likely and based on multiple equivalent measurements of similar helmets, this system holds true. For example, the variability in size between 20th C is much less than between a 20th C and the VP ANH.

DJ ANH
TM ESB
VP ANH (1st pull copy)
GH ANH master (nearly identical with VP ANH)
GH ANH copy
JB V2 "master"
GH ROTJ
20th Century ESB
SPFX ESB #1 helmet (one of the first pulls)
VM02
Don Post Deluxe
Don Post CA
Elstree ROTJ
SPFX ANH (recent version)

Now the 20th C, SPFX ESB, VM02, DP Deluxe/CA are VERY close in size. Obviously the DP Deluxe/CA are from a LFL source, not from the 20th C.

Based on the owner's accounts the TM is from ESB and the VP is from ROTJ productions. Now that being said, TM and I both agree that his helmet is original ESB. I think one or two other members here with knowledge of originals would agree. The VP has many details of the TM but it's got a lot of cleanup as well...whether that's from the owner as it seems someone here mentioned recently or from the production I don't know. But it is not on par with the TM in terms of size or even in terms of proportions.
If they were really from the same mold, you would expect a closer relationship of size and some indication of a neck extension...the necks don't even match even without the extension. I know things like neck lenght and curvature can be independent of the mold...how you trim it or how it comes out of the mold and warps...but the mouth in relation to the face and the face in relation to the crown are also different on the VP versus the TM. The inside of the eyes is different. The eyebrows are different...the VP eyebrows are like sharpened versions of ANH but the TM eyebrows show signs of being redone. And so on....

In spite of this, yes absolutely where the VP is not cleaned up, it's got the identical and beautiful details of the TM...IN RELATION TO THE ANH....because keep in mind that the TM has a lot of crap left over on it and wear and tear that is not related to the original ANH...for example what happened to the tube ends and minor wear on the crown like scuffing . The depth of the details is comparable...but again we come to the issue of size. I think the TM is from a mask or helmet that was modified during the production of ESB...it could be the original ANH mask that was modified and if so that's really surprising because then we are looking at a snapshot of the ANH original during ESB production. That would be great if true. But I have my doubts. It's possible that we are looking at a copy casting of the ANH original that was modified and then remolded, making the TM. I think the TM is from a different mold from the Paul Allen ESB and someone here I think might agree with me that knows more about the PA.

The VP would probably come from a copy of a casting used as a template for the ROTJ masks. Those masks are all smaller than ANH/ESB...look at the GH ROTJ or the Elstree...excellent pedigrees but surprisingly and consistently smaller than the ANH/ESB faceplates. The difference between the DarthJones and TM is miniscule compared to the consistent difference between the VP and the DJ/TM. Also, the GH ROTJ is much closer in size to the VP...makes sense because the VP came from the ROTJ production...much later than the TM. My guess is that the Darth Jones is nearly identical in size to the Paul Allen and the TM should be a tiny bit smaller...it is in fact smaller than the DJ by a very small amount but not large enough difference to suggest it's from a different time.

At any given time during the ANH/ESB/ROTJ productions there will be a template. From the VP/TM stories it's clear the template is a leftover ANH casting or mold. You can't reuse a mold for six years and for each production they will make a new one and its more than likely they make a mold of the most recent casting so you go down in generation and size. Look at the mask they show for the ROTS template. It's a ROTJ mask, not ANH or ESB.

Whew! I'm getting too :ac6 for these long posts.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:57 pm 
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Thanks for the in-depth analysis, SL! And for your patience. People get impatient with old farts like me who find it difficult to remember stated facts in a thread so chok full of information. Too much paint-sniffing as a kid, and today I don't remember where I put the blasted car keys.

Just curious, but I'd imagine that the DJ you measured was the one we've seen all painted up? How many layers of paint are supposedly on the DJ? And was the TM painted or unpainted? If unpainted, would that miniscule size difference be accounted for by virtue of the layers of paint on the DJ?

Why do you suppose there's such a difference in aesthetics between the GH ROTJ and the DP DLX?


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