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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:34 am 
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GINO wrote:
Based on reactions from specific people ...


:rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:45 am 
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GINO wrote:
I'd love to hear who's vader (pick any version) that you or anyone else think is more accurate than mine.



You trolled my thread, discredited its information without any credible proof, and you've bent it towards promoting yourself as the best of the best of the best.

This is the second thread in one day you've usurped to turn the Den into a hostile environment. This is becoming a bad habit.

You owe me and everyone here an apology.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:20 am 
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WTF.
Gino isnt upsetting anything here. He is trying to steer you folks right. Mac, I dont know where you get your info from, but I bet its not from anyone who has any original items or first hand experiance. You are pretty handy with photoshop and compares but just because you have a theory doesnt make it correct.
So why dont you try listening to Gino for a change? He's actually a pretty nice guy when you're not constantly telling him to prove everything and share everything.
I'll put it back to you folks. Why dont YOU show some g.damn proof?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:53 am 
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Midnight Trooper wrote:
WTF.
Gino isnt upsetting anything here. He is trying to steer you folks right. Mac, I dont know where you get your info from, but I bet its not from anyone who has any original items or first hand experiance. You are pretty handy with photoshop and compares but just because you have a theory doesnt make it correct.
So why dont you try listening to Gino for a change? He's actually a pretty nice guy when you're not constantly telling him to prove everything and share everything.
I'll put it back to you folks. Why dont YOU show some g.damn proof?


Here's one for you MT and GINO:

I've been around in the STW fandom for 30 years now, starting my own research about Vader helmets way before the internet.

I highly appreciate the input from people like Mac, because they are helpful for other fans getting their costumes right. From Gino I have so far only seen some pics of his Vader mannequins and some shots of Vader faceplates and domes on various forums - plus endless claims stated as facts. The last time Gino "revealed" some "secrets" I really got tired, because that was already common knowledge to me and others.

Oh yes, Gino's stuff looks excellent - no doubt about that. But believe me, I have seen and handled Vader lids (non-screen-used of course) in person that were better and more screen-accurate - especially when it comes to the ANH lid. BTW, I'm looking at one just in this moment.

This place is about props, but also about attitude. Saying something and claiming that it is fact without any kind of friendly explanation or proof is definitely the WRONG attitude here.

I consider myself an expert about the OT Vader helmets. I'm not that much interested in the other costume parts. If I tell you now that I recently handled the ORIGINAL HERO ANH VADER LID during a visit of a prop collector who wants to remain anonymous, would you take just my word as a fact?


Last edited by vadermania on Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:41 am 
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Midnight Trooper wrote:
WTF.
Gino isnt upsetting anything here. He is trying to steer you folks right. Mac, I dont know where you get your info from, but I bet its not from anyone who has any original items or first hand experiance. You are pretty handy with photoshop and compares but just because you have a theory doesnt make it correct.
So why dont you try listening to Gino for a change? He's actually a pretty nice guy when you're not constantly telling him to prove everything and share everything.
I'll put it back to you folks. Why dont YOU show some g.damn proof?


Err..Thats unnecessary

Mac is showing his comparisons to demonstrate his opinon. He contributes..We are discussing a topic that needs some clarity..Hence the screen caps..

ESB and ROTJ domes share some common ground yes..but they are not identical..Gino, has his opinion, I have mine and others have theirs..

Gino does not know what people own..He has not seen Everyone's Vaders either..

GINO, do you really think it's only you that has 1st generation castings of screen used props??? The answer is No..I'm not just talking about the helmet but other pieces..

Next year I will show off my ESB and ANH lifesizes if it means the best displayed/Accurate Vader's prove you are an authority on all things Vader according to your standards.. (Man, that's a very insulting statement to the community BTW..)

Over the last 2 weeks you are losing much respect by a way of your own actions..Reconsider what you are doing..it does not have to be this way..

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:11 pm 
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Speaking from someone who is very new to the Vader prop building community, Its sad to see that personal attacks come about when someone's information is shared with-in the group.

I really thought the whole point of this forum is to learn from your fellow fan's and share information, in a respectful manner... maybe im wrong???

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:22 pm 
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Darth Noronha wrote:
Speaking from someone who is very new to the Vader prop building community, Its sad to see that personal attacks come about when someone's information is shared with-in the group.

I really thought the whole point of this forum is to learn from your fellow fan's and share information, in a respectful manner... maybe im wrong???


No your not wrong..This forum is very friendly and informative..it boasts many knowledgeable fans and experts and we like to share in general....

Please bare with us while we are experiencing some teething problems..

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:40 pm 
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GINO wrote:
Based on reactions from specific people, I'll never post close up pics of those details.
I'd love to hear who's vader (pick any version) that you or anyone else think is more accurate than mine.


Well, that's just it then, isn't it? Having only seen far off and vague shots of your stuff, how can I even compare?

Other members come in here with great stuff that they made/restored/obtained and they show it off up close so we can learn from one another, and all you have to offer is "my stuff is the best but I can't show or tell you why." It's really not constructive for learning or group discussion, and you shouldn't continue to be surprised that people are tired of hearing it.

Don't get me wrong - I'm thrilled that you wish to share your opinions with us - it adds to the discussion and the debate. However, without proof beyond "because I know better," your statements are not facts, so please do not portray them as such. That goes for everyone.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:01 pm 
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darthvaderv wrote:
Darth Noronha wrote:
Speaking from someone who is very new to the Vader prop building community, Its sad to see that personal attacks come about when someone's information is shared with-in the group.

I really thought the whole point of this forum is to learn from your fellow fan's and share information, in a respectful manner... maybe im wrong???


No your not wrong..This forum is very friendly and informative..it boasts many knowledgeable fans and experts and we like to share in general....

Please bare with us while we are experiencing some teething problems..


Not too worry darthvaderv!

I totally agree that this forum is one of the most informative and knowledgeable ones out there!

Dont want to see this place turn into other forums

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:22 pm 
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GINO wrote:
I'd love to hear who's vader (pick any version) that you or anyone else think is more accurate than mine.


GINO wrote:
If I'm so wrong all the time, and all my info that I have access to is so wrong, then why, why does my stuff look correct and no one else's does? Dumb luck?


Holy Crap!! Those are some very Juvenile remarks, I understand the point your trying to make but, That's stuff 12 year olds say to each other..

I mean no disrespect Gino but, your contributions to this and other forums
would be much easier to swallow if they were backed up by Fact's..
To be perfectly honest without facts it's hard to tell if your trying to point
us in the right direction or the wrong direction.
it's very agravating to hear you say you have access to all this factual knowledge,
and then turn around and tell us you can't devulge any of it. I would bet
if the tables were turned, you would feel as we do
We all work really hard on our Vaders and sometimes were even a little
too anal about it, so every now, and then it would be nice to have some
proof positive information about Vader given to us without a fight..

You are right your vaders look very accurate, and I would never compare mine with yours or anyone elses because I could care less who's Vader is more accurate. All I really want to know is "HOW THE HELL CAN I HOOK UP WITH JESSICA ALBA" DAMN!!! She's Hot!!! :)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:34 pm 
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artisanprops wrote:
All I really want to know is "HOW THE HELL CAN I HOOK UP WITH JESSICA ALBA" DAMN!!! She's Hot!!! :)


I second that! :wtf

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:29 pm 
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Now this is a construtive discussion. We have people talking about what they supposedly know and people explaining themselves a bit better.
And also Jessica Alba. :wink:
That was all I was trying to achive. My earlier post was not uncalled for because it matched the intesity of other's posts.

And I do think Mac is a neat guy too. Im just unhappy Mac, that you seem to take pleasure in ribbing Gino without even considering what he has to say.

And do not try write off my opinions and brand me "Gino's boy" please. I am no man's cronie. I take the info as it comes and form opinions based on it and just because I seem to be the only one who isnt giving him crap every time he opens his mouth doesnt mean we are "in bed together" :rolleyes

Let the games begin.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:05 pm 
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I second what artisanprops said. Oh, and yes, Jessia is a babe!

Midnight Trooper, I appreciate the honesty here. I don't take pleasure in ribbing GINO. I have an obligation to stand up for people whose learning and interests are in this thread. GINO came to snub this thread as me posting false information. So let's address this once and for all. At the end of reading the following, if you feel I should listen to GINO any further, then I'd be quite amused.

An accusation was made. To address this accusation, at darthvaderv's request, I started a new thread since GINO put the burden of proof on me when the ball had always been in his own court. Nevertheless, I posted 10-12 photo comparisons and backed up my belief. In response, all GINO could do was fault the comps as flawed with a fabricated opinion with no solid evidence to back his position up. When challenged to produce 10 photo comps of his own, GINO went strangely silent.

Why would one with such force of opinion and an enforcer of his own opinions become so quiet when asked to produce photocomps himself? Something felt off here. I couldn't help but wonder if having me to prove the differences wasn't the issue at all, and if this wasn't some elaborate tactic of misdirection, and if I and the community were being played here.

Sure enough, this is what I discovered, thanks to Darth Karo showing some excellent photos that highlight the differences between the ESB and ROTJ dome positionings that appear to be consistent throughout both films. Yes, there are some minor exceptions here and there. However, of the photos shared by Karo, this one of the ROTJ in particular caught my eye.

Image

Not only does it show a large frown gap in comparison with the ESB shots that Karo kindly posted...

... but it is the same photo that GINO has used on the RPF to show how accurate his ROTJ is!

See for yoruself. I have also archived the pictures in case they are removed to conceal the fact at the source:

http://www.therpf.com/showthread.php?t=10389

Now notice that GINO shares his ROTJ, which is in fact quite lovely.

Image

And then he shows it in comparison with a LFL promo photo and a prop photo of the ROTJ suit.

Image

But I took the shot of his helmet and increased its size. Look what I discovered:

Image

A frickin' huge frown gap - a gap size difference that GINO is basically saying doesn't exist and that my analysis is all wrong and that I am posting false information.

But that was GINO's own photo, folks. GINO made a large frown gap. More power to him!

However, his "hatred" is perplexing. Either he reproduced this feature subconsciously, or he knew about it all along and doesn't want people to know about it. Or is there a third reason?

The answer turns out to be in the photo below. GINO's own ESB and ROTJ suits in which he makes an error.

Image

Notice that he sets up his ESB dome with a ROTJ style frown gap!

Suddenly, GINO's constant repetition of the erroneous "ROTJ = ESB" mantra is starting to make sense. Notice that despite having been debunked by experts, including vadermania who himself has not only handled Vader helmets at LFL but has stood in the LFL Archives, GINO has continued to drone on this fallacy, even on this thread. If he can successfully change the rules of the game through repetition and convince enough newcomers who are won over by tiny dark photos, and if the majority believe that the ROTJ and ESB are the same helmet, then GINO didn't make any mistakes and that his setups are supremely accurate. But one area of small detail that his small and dark photos cannot hide are the eyebrows. Once ordinary fans like you can I can spot these subtle differences, then "experts" can't lord this secret knowledge over us regular fans, hence we have a reason for the great hostility towards this thread.

Whereas GINO once blasted another fan with "Are you blind?!", GINO himself isn't blind. He'd much prefer that we remain blind to the differences. And as the saying goes, "In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king." All this secret knowledge benefits only one person. But now the truth has emerged. GINO can bully, intimidate and silence the community no longer, nor can he brainwash people into believing what he wants people to believe through dark, small photos that obscure so much detail that people without Photoshop can't tell if there are inaccuracies or not because they don't know what to look out for because GINO doesn't want this level of information out that could undermine his version of the "facts".

Basically, GINO is trying to cover up his error by discrediting me and my thread.

The photos have spoken.

I wish to take this opportunity to thank the kind and supportive experts who have participated in this thread. They will never admit themselves as experts but I personally hold them in much higher regard.

I would also like to encourage those of you were previously won over merely by small, dark photos. There is a lot more to Vader as a sculpture than what you can make out in tiny two-dimensional images. You've come to the right place on the Internet - we're here to empower the fan and to build friendships that span different countries. We're a community that seeks to help one another. We all benefit when we help each other get farther ahead. I need to stress that these values here on the Den are directly contrary to certain "old school" individuals who previously had a rulership and stranglehold over the community with their secret knowledge. What they used to lord over the community in previous years are no longer the standard of accuracy this year. They have to constantly change or modify their possessions or products because fans are becoming exposed to Hi-def screen captures, and more and more people are sharing photos and information previously exclusive to those certain old school individuals.

I ask that the community here not be discouraged by how one individual tried to turn this thread into a trainwreck of self-promotionalism and propaganda. The community has to go through these growth pains so that people can decide if they want to be part of the old school dictatorship or the democracy of the emerging community here on the Den. If you are desiring to be part of the latter, you are not alone. We are your friends, and so long as we are here, we will stand by you and not allow you to become intimidated or bullied by internet trolls.

The one who tried to discredit me and silence me and tell me once to "STFU" has got some serious apologizing to do.

P.S. I take no pleasure in crafting posts like this, but so long as I am here, I will stand up to people who bully and who try to mislead and discredit people without evidence. I will stand up for anyone who is bullied or downtrodden.

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- Mac
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:49 pm 
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Well played clerk, well played...........

Mac you do realize that those were Ginos old displays, that are clearly more accurate now. Especially since he has a contact which will remain forever nameless, with an abundance of knowledge and items of "golden proveance."

But we all know that when the lifesizes were first put together the items were all completely accurate to begin with. Or that was at least alleged. You know back with the GH ANH, and the Jeff ROTJ, etc. I'm trying to remember but I am pretty sure that is how things were. Beautiful pieces, mysterious origins, no information to the contrary until much much later. And then holy lord the upgraded pieces came in that mimicked the available HD screen caps that clearly showed inaccuracies with the former versions. Oh and then guess what, the same dog and pony show, continuing to be shrouded in mystery.

Gino is a fine craftsman there is no doubt. And very talented at mimicking what is seen on screen and in reference. But the longer you are around, and the more you just read and read, the clearer things become.

So I say again, "Well played clerk, well played!"

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:57 pm 
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The biggest misconception that you have in all of that mess, is that somehow any of this is personal. It's about accurate info, not to trounce on someone. I'd just as soon speak out against one of my close friends as you in the interests of accurate info. If it feels like it is more directed at you, it is probably because you do a lot of posting (a lot more than any other person), and most of the time the things you post I feel/believe/know are inaccurate.

When it comes to props and accuracy, for me, it's never personal.
As far as my displays go, they speak for themselves. I don't need to do any convincing about them. Just clarify from time to time when I'm forced to.

BTW, I take it you didn't realize that the helmet in those pics was my modified DP deluxe which was sold forever ago.


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