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 Post subject: Re: The AA Trial - renamed from armor sculpt topic
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:07 pm 
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Not to sound cocky, but I have read through a lot of threads and looked at all the photographic evidence and I still find it all inconclusive. For the armour no, I don't think AA used the original moulds (except maybe the shoulder bells). But for the ST helmets I am still not sure if he used original moulds or not. I was hoping the verdict of the case would shed more light on the whereabouts of the original moulds.


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 Post subject: Re: The AA Trial - renamed from armor sculpt topic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:01 am 
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zenwalker wrote:
For the armour no, I don't think AA used the original moulds (except maybe the shoulder bells).
Quote:

Most if not all of AA's armor is recast TE or GF sculpted parts... It shares all of easy to identify ROTJ tells, so there is no way in hell it came from ANH molds...

Quote:
But for the ST helmets I am still not sure if he used original moulds or not. I was hoping the verdict of the case would shed more light on the whereabouts of the original moulds.


Honestly AA will say anything and change as necessary to back his story, even the Judge pointed this out... AA's helmets if they originate from any part of the original mold, then the mold has be revised and rebuilt creating many distinct differences, making it a totally different beast in the end... He even revised his story about the molds several times as differences were pointed out, and to this date can't explain where the 'swoop' went on the back of the helmet...

Sorry to anyone that has or had a glimpse of hope, hold on to it if you must, but IMO there is NO way AA's parts originated from original molds... The only part that I have any hesitation towards would be the face plate, but even that hesitation is small as I believe it is more likely derived from a casting taken of one of his "prototype" helmets prior to him selling them off...


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 Post subject: Re: The AA Trial - renamed from armor sculpt topic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:19 am 
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exoray wrote:
Honestly AA will say anything and change as necessary to back his story, even the Judge pointed this out... AA's helmets if they originate from any part of the original mold, then the mold has be revised and rebuilt creating many distinct differences, making it a totally different beast in the end... He even revised his story about the molds several times as differences were pointed out, and to this date can't explain where the 'swoop' went on the back of the helmet...

Sorry to anyone that has or had a glimpse of hope, hold on to it if you must, but IMO there is NO way AA's parts originated from original molds... The only part that I have any hesitation towards would be the face plate, but even that hesitation is small as I believe it is more likely derived from a casting taken of one of his "prototype" helmets prior to him selling them off...



You know full well you can't argue that. The judge said nothing about the molds being original or not. It's still an open question. You can argue it from the standpoint of your impression of accuracy, but not from a legal one. The judge never stated "you don't have the original molds, so you don't have copyright". :rolleyes

Quote:
Be that as it may, Mr Wilson, on behalf of Mr Ainsworth, did not dispute that the helmet thus produced (and the final version) was a substantial reproduction of the McQuarrie material for copyright purposes; and Lucas did not dispute that some of the detail on the prototype and the final version was created by Mr Ainsworth. I received a lot of evidence from Mr Ainsworth as to how precisely he first produced his own version of the helmet, and how he then went on to make the various moulds which he used for vacuum-forming the five parts which made up the whole. In the end little of that detail mattered, in relation to the Stormtrooper helmet. What is important is the source of its design.


So the molds didn't matter, it was the final product that resembled the McQuarrie design.

And I've already shown how many times the prototype helmet interior doesn't match the AA interior, nor is it as sharp as the AA. Where it came from I have no idea. I'm not saying the molds are original, just that I don't think he got them from the prototype. He stated they needed repair and that probably led to the changes.


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 Post subject: Re: The AA Trial - renamed from armor sculpt topic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:52 am 
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SithLord wrote:
exoray wrote:
And I've already shown how many times the prototype helmet interior doesn't match the AA interior, nor is it as sharp as the AA. Where it came from I have no idea. I'm not saying the molds are original, just that I don't think he got them from the prototype. He stated they needed repair and that probably led to the changes.


My assumption is based on known fact the most important being he previously owned existing "prototype" face pulls, and other helmet parts...

Any inside differences on the pulls you have shown could also be explained by AA reworking the mold after casting, and the sharpness could also be a result of reworking the edges prior to forming... To flat out deny they originated from the "prototype" faceplate that presumably originated from the original molds itself, is simply dismissing a very probable source of origin...

All you have to do is look at MR Laws new helmet that originates from the same source at TE, his reworked molds have resulted in an incredibly crisp helmet...


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 Post subject: Re: The AA Trial - renamed from armor sculpt topic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:58 am 
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I don't disagree with you...but I don't see how he revised the face to that extent given his limited knowledge of what is accurate and it still looks like the stop-that-ship and move along faces.... :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: The AA Trial - renamed from armor sculpt topic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:56 am 
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What I find really interesting about the discussion going on now at the RPF, is that the same old apologists who hung their reputations on AA's authenticity and veracity are now trying to spin the decision in ways that make them look less foolish.

What they ignore (because their house of cards collapses) is that the judge holds Andrew's integrity in absolute contempt.

He takes pains to point out the many factual errors and subsequent retractions of statements of the defendant and even pokes fun at Andy by referring to how he sees the world through "Ainsworth-colored glasses".

So, whatever the ultimate resolution may be (and one thing I'll guarantee is that Lucasfilm and EVERY OTHER STUDIO IN THE WORLD will fight the judge's interpretation that they've lost the copyright issue), the one thing that is painfully clear is that Andrew Ainsworth is a liar, as I've always said. And that any claims he makes are worse than highly suspect.

And the fact that he tried -and spent considerable time formulating his "seamless, organic" concept for how he (and not the poor unfortunate dead woman) designed the helmet should make all right-thinking, moral people hold him in the highest contempt.

A disgusting man, your Mr. Ainsworth. And shame on those who propped him up and let others get ripped off by this charlatan.

Peace.

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: The AA Trial - renamed from armor sculpt topic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:45 am 
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indeed...BUSTED!!

I must say though, the judge needs to get his years straight: :blah
Quote:
39. Mr Ainsworth made several prototypes as he tried to get to a satisfactory design. In his first witness statement he suggested that he gave a prototype to Mr Pemberton at the beginning of February, and the latter in turn showed it to Mr Lucas. However, having studied Mr Pemberton's diary closely, along with Mr Mollo's diary entries, Mr Ainsworth changed the chronology and participation of the parties significantly. Having originally portrayed the situation as one in which he did not know who the end user was, and in which he did not meet Mr Mollo until mid-February, he then suggested that he met Mr Mollo as early as 23rd January. He also materially shifted the date on which he said he was asked to create other helmets from March to this January date. Whether he was right about that, I think it likely that he did meet Mr Mollo before mid-February. They probably met in the last week of January, either at Mr Ainsworth's premises or at Mr Pemberton's, and that enabled them to have a discussion about the then form of the prototype helmet. There was discussion about further modifications to the design – Mr Mollo accepted, and indeed asserted, that there were changes which were discussed between him and Mr Ainsworth. There was an exchange of ideas, probably over the next week or two, leading to the presentation of what seems to have been a final prototype to Mr Lucas on 17th February. There was a dispute as to the date when the first prototype was handed over, but the precise date does not matter; it was at some point within the last 10 days of January 2006. There may have been a little discussion over the modification of detail. Mr Lucas, who was still exercising the close and detailed control that he had hitherto exercised, approved the helmet by 19th February and he and Mr Mollo said that they wanted 50 of them. They dealt with Mr Pemberton in relation to that. Mr Pemberton told Mr Ainsworth that he wanted 50 helmets and Mr Ainsworth quoted £20 per helmet. Mr Pemberton said he would have to get back to his customer about that and a couple of days later the price was approved. Mr Ainsworth set about making the 50 using his moulds and vacuum moulding machinery. Some were made in a khaki plastic and painted white, but that was less than satisfactory because the paint tended to come off, so he made most in white ABS. They were delivered to the studio during March and Mr Ainsworth invoiced Mr Pemberton for them. He was duly paid. More were produced later.

The Stormtrooper armour
40. The Stormtrooper armour is another detail conceived by Mr Lucas. Mr Muir told me how his conception was embodied, in its early stages. The armour was the first project he worked on in the film. He worked from the two McQuarrie drawings given to Mr Pemberton and Mr Ainsworth. A plaster cast of an average-sized actor was taken, and used as a sort of tailor's dummy on which armour was modelled using clay. During the modelling phase changes were made as required by those involved in design, which must have included Mr Lucas. The final sculpt was approved by both Mr Lucas and Mr Barry. That approval having been given, the model was broken down into sections and a rubber mould was taken (within a fibreglass case). From that rubber mould a plaster cast was made, giving the same shape as the original sculpture. Mr Muir then worked on the plaster by carving to produce a more refined version of the original clay shapes. Again, Mr Lucas was involved in approving detail at this phase of the operation. The detail was sharper so that when (as would happen later) moulds were produced, the detail would survive through the ensuing process into the final shapes. This phase, Mr Muir said, took him about 4-5 weeks and was finished by the end of January 2006.


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 Post subject: Re: The AA Trial - renamed from armor sculpt topic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:05 am 
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SithLord wrote:
I don't disagree with you...but I don't see how he revised the face to that extent given his limited knowledge of what is accurate and it still looks like the stop-that-ship and move along faces.... :wink:


I have to agree with Sithlord, there is no way he could have gotten the faceplate to look that close by rebuilding it. I agree that a few features are not the same as the originals (i.e. rear swoop, reduced undercut etc.), but the main features of the face are just too similar. To me the differences point more toward areas of a damaged mould that were rebuilt.

Of course I am not condoning AA's actions in all this but would just like to know where the original moulds are. I guess we may never know.


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 Post subject: Re: The AA Trial - renamed from armor sculpt topic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:28 am 
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Moogy, I'm just arguing points about the case and that LFL's position was not infallable, and certainly the judge shot down many of the claims from the US judgement. I was always interested in how Andrew would defend himself, that doesn't mean he's right. Of course Andrew dug his own grave but he lied to everyone, both supporters and antagonists, so condemning those who supported him on the basis of his contribution to Star Wars and how some perceived his products is unnecessary and a reflection of how they like to participate in the hobby.

The point of defending him at the beginning was simply because it wouldn't matter which crew member from Star Wars came along or even if he WAS telling the entire truth and even if he DID have the original molds or used them, the same people who make unlicensed fanmade helmets and armor and those that support them, like yourself, would still try to destroy that person. That's the point here. It has nothing to do with Andrew, it has everything to do with how certain people conduct themselves in the hobby even to the extent they will go to any length, including complaining to a licensee, in order to subvert any and all competition. Andrew claimed he owned the design and that was a lie and that was wrong, but the only other thing that distinguishes him from any other fanmade helmet maker is that he didn't do it under the table. If he didn't claim they were his design, and if his helmets were entirely accurate, would the antagonists still embrace his products? No. The same thing would happen and that's the point here. It doesn't take a lot of legal limbo to deduce what course this would have taken even if Andrew did tell the truth....the same course.


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 Post subject: Re: The AA Trial - renamed from armor sculpt topic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:18 am 
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SithLord wrote:
and certainly the judge shot down many of the claims from the US judgment.


Actually I don't believe the Judge shot down any of the claims of the US judgment, in fact he conceded that US copyright infringement was made... From the looks of the paperwork the trademark issues were never pressed in the UK nor the unfair competition issues, that are obviously US and California specific...

In all honestly the Judge left the door wide open for continued litigation, and I suspect nothing less but continued litigation...

Also AA lost his claim, meaning his chance of recovery is gone making paying for continued litigation extremely hard on him...


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 Post subject: Re: The AA Trial - renamed from armor sculpt topic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:33 pm 
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exoray wrote:
SithLord wrote:
and certainly the judge shot down many of the claims from the US judgment.


Actually I don't believe the Judge shot down any of the claims of the US judgment, in fact he conceded that US copyright infringement was made... From the looks of the paperwork the trademark issues were never pressed in the UK nor the unfair competition issues, that are obviously US and California specific...

In all honestly the Judge left the door wide open for continued litigation, and I suspect nothing less but continued litigation...

Also AA lost his claim, meaning his chance of recovery is gone making paying for continued litigation extremely hard on him...


Agreed. Especially on the last part. I wouldn't be surprised if his attorneys were working on contingency. And with his claim being shot down, there's not a lot of upside to their continued involvement.

That'll be especially tough on AA if there's further LFL litigation.


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 Post subject: Re: The AA Trial - renamed from armor sculpt topic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:54 pm 
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I have to say that AA did a lot better than I thought he would. Having now read the complete judgement its clear his constant "amendments and reconstructions" lost him a huge amount of credibility with the Judge - and I can personally understand Mr Mann’s pains!

Certainly the broad sheets in the UK see it as a partial victory for AA since Mann refused to enforce the US decision and more importantly ruled that the English copyright for the helmets had expired, which means LucasFilm does not have exclusive rights to replicate the helmets - at least outside the US

The latter point is likely to have generated a huge amount of concern within Lucasfilm who will now I am sure press on with additional action since they cannot allow such prized assets to exist in this “limbo” state.

However as Tom has said, given AA's legal team would have worked on a contingency basis. Without the "copyright ownership" pot off gold to go after, I'd be surprised if they are interested in continuing.

Some interesting facts came out of the case. I'm sure there's going to be more of this over the coming years

Cheers

Jez


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 Post subject: Re: The AA Trial - renamed from armor sculpt topic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:56 pm 
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Hey, Jez.

There was no mention of the stand! :wink:

How're you doing?

Hope all is well.

Peace.

T.


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 Post subject: Re: The AA Trial - renamed from armor sculpt topic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:29 pm 
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Nice - half my coffee just sprayed out of my nose onto the keyboard

When I think back at those arguments we had :lol :lol :lol

So funny that people with so much in common find ways to disagree so violently on such minor irrelevancies in life!

Doing good thanks Tom - hope you are too

Cheers

Jez


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 Post subject: Re: The AA Trial - renamed from armor sculpt topic
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:47 pm 
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Does seem a bit dopey in retrospect now, doesn't it?

Ahh, youth! :ac6


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