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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:07 am 
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NoHumorMan wrote:
CSMacLaren wrote:
We run in circles because in actuality, Gino is SithLord, and SithLord is Gino! :toothy

In all honesty; what is the purpose of such a post?


Lighthearted jest I would imagine. At least thats what I get from it.

I must add, this thread is simply great! We have managed to get through 27 pages and for the most part some great information has been shared with minimal squabbling, and no outright flaming thus far. In the Vader community thats almost unheard of. So I applaud everyone here, and I am loving the comparisons and information sharing that has been happening thus far. I cant wait to see the results that Chris has coming. I am also really intrigued to learn more about the Elizabeth woman that Thomas and Hal9000 speak of.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:08 am 
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I actually thought it was funny :lol


Ehh-em ok serious now back to the thread....

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:43 am 
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That's funny you mention that Mac, because I believe you and Sithlord have more in common than any of the people on these forums. And I think most of us know why. Interpret that however you want.


The reason that I keep dismissing the whole size issue is this.
From the same mold, a fiberglass casting can vary a great deal. There are a lot of factors that contribute to size differential.
- The room temperature of the area in which the casting is made.
- The amount of catalyst used in the polyester resin.
- How long the piece is left in the mold after laying up

These contributing factors can cause what I consider major differences (up to an 1/8" or so, and even more so on really large pieces).
Based on the way measurements are presented here, some would say items coming from the same mold are actually different in generation when that is absurd.
When there is that much room for size discrepancy on items from the same mold, how can you possibly use that as an accurate measure of what came first, second, etc..
The method is flawed and should not be used at all in determining anything in regard to pedigree.

"This X is .2mm longer than that X, so it must be an earlier generation."
You're fooling yourself if you believe that.


Using measurements for this type of purpose is due to some needing the false sense of comfort and by the need to be able to look at this in black and white terms.
It would be so much simpler if we could look at measurements and draw hardcore solid determinations from them.
We simply can't.

So what we have here are some using a sampling of info to try to either praise or damn pieces that they are either financially or emotionally invested in.

The truth is obscured by all the noise of nonsensical photo comparisons, overlays, and measurement squabbles.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:22 am 
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Off topic -

I am correct in saying this is the biggest thread in The Prop Den's history now?

:as2


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:25 am 
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GINO wrote:
That's funny you mention that Mac, because I believe you and Sithlord have more in common than any of the people on these forums. And I think most of us know why. Interpret that however you want.


The reason that I keep dismissing the whole size issue is this.
From the same mold, a fiberglass casting can vary a great deal. There are a lot of factors that contribute to size differential.
- The room temperature of the area in which the casting is made.
- The amount of catalyst used in the polyester resin.
- How long the piece is left in the mold after laying up

These contributing factors can cause what I consider major differences (up to an 1/8" or so, and even more so on really large pieces).
Based on the way measurements are presented here, some would say items coming from the same mold are actually different in generation when that is absurd.
When there is that much room for size discrepancy on items from the same mold, how can you possibly use that as an accurate measure of what came first, second, etc..
The method is flawed and should not be used at all in determining anything in regard to pedigree.

"This X is .2mm longer than that X, so it must be an earlier generation."
You're fooling yourself if you believe that.


Using measurements for this type of purpose is due to some needing the false sense of comfort and by the need to be able to look at this in black and white terms.
It would be so much simpler if we could look at measurements and draw hardcore solid determinations from them.
We simply can't.

So what we have here are some using a sampling of info to try to either praise or damn pieces that they are either financially or emotionally invested in.

The truth is obscured by all the noise of nonsensical photo comparisons, overlays, and measurement squabbles.


Gino, surely you have to agree that size does play a part in the equation. If you are talking about using only shapes and details to determine the authenticity (or whatever other word you want to use) of a prop, then I say that's not a very well researched result. Using photo comparisons is not nonsensical, they are just another form of identification. How else do we judge your displays? By comparing them to what we see on screen, and in photographs etc. Perhaps some do get too involved in photographic comparisons and only see what they want to see, but I'd rather have that than just a stated word. You painted your ANH faceplate, for example, and you based it on what? You based it on what you see on screen and in photographs.

In making any evaluation (with regard to the subject matter) you have to consider several factors. Size being one of them and photographs being another. Then you also consider shapes and details backed with research and discussions. There is a lot of that going around in this thread. Do I agree with everything presented? Nope, but I appreciate the effort being put forth by all and the continued discussions we are having.

What opinions do you have about your faceplate that would make it in line with the original. Everyone knows where Tom got the TM. Everyone knows where Thomas got his TD. Everyone knows, and will know more, where the VP came from. All these great helmets, all in one thread for all to see and know about their history. So I ask you, where did yours come from? What is the history behind yours? It can't possibly be any more secretive than any of these. I've already said what I believe it to be, but I'd love to be proven wrong, or right. :wink:


Last edited by Lambotour on Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:28 am 
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voice in the crowd wrote:
Off topic -

I am correct in saying this is the biggest thread in The Prop Den's history now?

:as2


I'll do you one better my friend. This thread will be the most important vader thread in the history of all forums when it is finally complete. :as2


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:30 am 
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Darth Karo wrote:
Gino, surely you have to agree that size does play a part in the equation.


OMG, that was the whole point of my long post was that I DON'T agree size plays a part. Not one bit whatsoever.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:33 am 
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IMO, this thread could be condensed down to like 2 pages of worthwhile info.
The rest reminds me of those tribesman in "The Gods Must Be Crazy" trying to figure out what a soda bottle is.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:43 am 
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GINO wrote:
Darth Karo wrote:
Gino, surely you have to agree that size does play a part in the equation.


OMG, that was the whole point of my long post was that I DON'T agree size plays a part. Not one bit whatsoever.


That's rather hypocritical of you based on everything you ever say with regards to your displays. You talk about accurately sized belt boxes, belts, the spacing of stitches on gloves and leather vader suits, the size of your mannequins, your cod pieces, your stormtrooper and royal guard helmets, your yoda robes, Darth Maul, on and on and on about size and accuracy. Yet with something as important as a vader helmet, you are going to state that size does not matter? OMG is right.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:48 am 
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GINO wrote:
IMO, this thread could be condensed down to like 2 pages of worthwhile info.
The rest reminds me of those tribesman in "The Gods Must Be Crazy" trying to figure out what a soda bottle is.


That's really unnecessary when everyone has tried to contribute in a positive way. Like I said humility would serve you well. So when are you going to come forward and admit that your faceplate is a VP? Remember one thing Gino, you can't buy everything under the radar. :wink:


Last edited by Lambotour on Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:13 am 
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GINO wrote:
IMO, this thread could be condensed down to like 2 pages of worthwhile info.
The rest reminds me of those tribesman in "The Gods Must Be Crazy" trying to figure out what a soda bottle is.


Then you area welcome to stop contributing to it - posts like this are unproductive for everyone and serve no benefit


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:52 am 
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Of course those factors will play into how large a casting is coming out of a mold but if you know about the molding/casting process the reason we have molds is to have a consistent result geometrically. I've seen the same mold sit for months and then there is a significant reduction in size of the casting...just because the mold dries out. But I provided a list and hierarchy of helmets...mostly fan helmets...based on measurements I've made of them and not just the cheek width although that's the best indicator. I've collected the data and it shows there are two distinct size classes. I've had many fanmade helmets and when I got the "green" mask the first thing that blew me away was it's size. Then I realized hey ya Dave Prowse' head is pretty big. But also Brian Muir added extra material to the head casting so that he'd have some breathing room. Before I did the measurements I thought as you do...there's no way that one could use measurements to assess lineage. So I compared every mask out there I could with mine and found it was smaller...so I compared them against each other. Even three masks from different times show almost identical sizes. I've seen that with the SPFX and 20th C especially and the DP Deluxe. There isn't really that much variability and the varibility is only between types of masks, not between masks. Again we are back to the fact that you haven't done the measurements and I have so you are in no position to question the findings unless you can provide measurements to the contrary.

I've shown the TDANH next to the TM, and the VP. The Fyberdyne/GH for example are also closer together than the 20thC/SPFX/JBV2. The DJANH/TMESB/TDANH are in their own size class. Even something like a GH ROTJ or Elstree ROTJ are not in the same size class...why? Well the only explanation I could think of was generational changes related to remolding an/or shrinkage of molds.

You can nay-say all you like but until you have quantitative results that discount what I have found it's just hot air....


Here's a sample list of the cheek widths (outer points) of the smaller group (in cm):

GH ROTJ 14.15, 14.02 (an accurate source...why small?)
Elstree ROTJ 13.811, 14.05 (completely different source...two different sizes but still close to GH ROTJ and in the same size class)

20th Century 14.15, 14.5, 14.175 (a standard for recasters)

JB V2 master 14.118 (smaller than 20th C)

SPFX ESB #1 14.120 (almost identically smaller than 20th C)
Later SPFX ANH 13.91 (a later casting and smaller still)

How could they be so similar? These are all different sources...so if you can track size like that and then find different size groups...it's suggestive of lineage because the more recent castings...or the recasts... are smaller...

I would invite people here to submit similar measurements....

The bottom line, Gino, is that if your mask doesn't fall into the size group of the original or close to original castings, bad luck.....


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:01 am 
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Thank you for reinforcing my point.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:03 am 
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By the way, it seemed to me at one point when I looked that the VP tusk tubes are not like the Paul Allen or ANH tusk tubes but rather more like ROTJ...something I forgot to mention...if I have time I'll do a comparison...but work is crazy lately...


And your point is Gino? You said there is so much variability that size is not reliable as an indicator.

I haven't shown the larger size class... :rolleyes

And if this thread is so boring for you why bother following it? ;)


Last edited by SithLord on Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:13 am 
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One of my favorite comparisons....the TDANH vs the DJANH and SPFX ANH...

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