VP Helmet comparisons

AnsonJames · **Joined:** Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:53 am **Posts:** 251

SithLord wrote:

The mouths of later masks are smaller in proportion to the face for some reason. Brian Muir inspected this mask and there was nothing of the sort...no material added to the mouth.

The mouths of later masks are smaller in proportion to the face?

I've never heard that before.

Can you back it up?

SithLord · **Joined:** Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:12 am **Posts:** 3115

AnsonJames wrote:

SithLord wrote:

AnsonJames wrote:

Do you think Brian Muir remembers a lot about something he sculpted in a couple of days 31 years ago?

When you create something with your own hands? Yes. He knows every part of that mask and how he made it quite clearly and can tell if something is off.

In court this is known as 'hearsay'.

I know a ton of sculptors that can't remember what they did last Tuesday let alone 30 years ago.

Right so if Brian Muir is confident what he did you don't believe him.

SithLord · **Joined:** Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:12 am **Posts:** 3115

Darth Karo wrote:

SithLord wrote:

None of that changes the relationship of the width of the mouths. Don't even look at the tusk tubes. Angle won't change the width of the mouth.

Thomas, is the TD measurement of the inner bottom corners of the mouth, the width of the teeth and the width of the teeth gap larger on the TD when compared to the TM?

I'll measure them....

SithLord · **Joined:** Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:12 am **Posts:** 3115

AnsonJames wrote:

I completely disagree the VP has been established as a ROTJ era piece.
The only 'expert' that verified the VP as a ROTJ was Sithlord.

I assumed it was and thought it was but if the owner says no then I stand corrected. It is however the same size class as post-ESB castings I've seen and the same size as the GH ROTJ. That was partly the basis for my assumption. If it's ESB era then why smaller?

SithLord · **Joined:** Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:12 am **Posts:** 3115

NoHumorMan wrote:

[
Don't be silly. Of course it will. If something is angled up and thereby closer to the camera than a similar object next to it, even by millimeters, it'll appear larger. But since I don't know how the helmets were positioned I can't say that that explains this and must therefore assume that you may be right.

But knowing how it is nearly impossible to pose helmets similarly because of the TM extension, it will undoubtedly put a lot of pressure on any pictures regarding the claims made using those.

And to go back to the TM neck-line. I don't need to match the exact shape and curvature to any other pictures, because, if the scratches and bumps and damage seen on the originals match up exactly where they ought to be on the TM, then chances are unlikely that the TM has been trimmed short. If you have a helmet with a longer neck, which has paint on it, then you could likely have one that is trimmed for ESB or trimmed longer for whatever reason - speculation on my part. But the claim that the TM is cut short is bollocks.

Previously you judged every other helmet by the standards of the GH, knowing full well that not all accepted it as being the closest to the real thing... and now you do the same with this "green" mask. I know you've done a lot of research on it, but remember, any such claims you make about it is an uphill battle... and the fact that it is painted ultimately brings the question: how do you really know what's hiding under that paint?

I have no problem with the "green" cast possibly being superior or what-not... just haven't seen much to back it up. Which brings us back to the age-old problem - the less is showed the less people will believe. However, this is neither proof or lack of proof and the reasons for not revealing everything are valid, as we've talked about. You may be right, you may be wrong, but regardless of any of that: you have a great helmet cast and that's really all that matters.

They are the same distance from the camera. What is so impossible? If not then it would seem I was trying to fool people here. Right? The necks in the front are the same length and I made sure they were horizontally the same. I have so many images of these two I'll see if I have something else or just redo it. It's like pulling teeth here....if someone else does a comparison everyone believes it. If I do it it must be wrong....

The GH arguments I posed before were based on the fact that its neck matches up with this casting I have and it was clear from the GH size that it came from something original ANH and not a custom sculpt. So whatever I said about the GH back then hasn't changed because I had the mask back then too. So all along when I was talking about the GH, I knew that it was sizewise right in relation to my mask and that was really what I meant...

How thick is paint? Well I've had my mask next to the first pull VP and now a TM. Details that are in the casting can be seen through paint. Certainly there are very fine details I can't see with the paint but nothing so far is missing that I see on the TM or VP. If I compared the masks and details then that's how I know and also from good images of the screen mask and Paul Allen mask.

The TM is shorter on the left side it seems. It's built up more there as well. The PA and mine will lie horizontal if placed upright...the TM wont if it didn't have that extension on the left. The right side is fine I checked that and that's why it looks ok in the comp that Mike did.

Why should I show everything about my mask? I am presenting what I think so far about it and that's all. And I wanted to make it clear that if you think the TM or VP are just like coming out of the original ANH mold, sorry no. But it's not a fair comparison because the TM is ESB and the VP is later on....they are both fantastic examples of castings that come from and show the features of the screen ANH but not all of them. Ok? That's all I'm saying.

AnsonJames · **Joined:** Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:53 am **Posts:** 251

Are you Brian Muirs agent now or something?
You spoke to him for a short while a couple of years ago I believe.

You make it sound like he invites you round his house for barbecues.

I'm not saying I don't believe him.

SithLord wrote:

AnsonJames wrote:

SithLord wrote:

AnsonJames wrote:

Do you think Brian Muir remembers a lot about something he sculpted in a couple of days 31 years ago?

When you create something with your own hands? Yes. He knows every part of that mask and how he made it quite clearly and can tell if something is off.

In court this is known as 'hearsay'.

I know a ton of sculptors that can't remember what they did last Tuesday let alone 30 years ago.

Right so if Brian Muir is confident what he did you don't believe him.

AnsonJames · **Joined:** Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:53 am **Posts:** 251

SithLord wrote:

AnsonJames wrote:

I completely disagree the VP has been established as a ROTJ era piece.
The only 'expert' that verified the VP as a ROTJ was Sithlord.

I assumed it was and thought it was but if the owner says no then I stand corrected. It is however the same size class as post-ESB castings I've seen and the same size as the GH ROTJ. That was partly the basis for my assumption. If it's ESB era then why smaller?

You're the only one that's saying it's smaller Thomas.

AnsonJames · **Joined:** Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:53 am **Posts:** 251

It is like pulling teeth.
There's no bloody way the TM helmets neck is cut short.

Sometimes it would seem you were trying to fool people here.

SithLord · **Joined:** Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:12 am **Posts:** 3115

AnsonJames wrote:

Are you Brian Muirs agent now or something?
You spoke to him for a short while a couple of years ago I believe.

You make it sound like he invites you round his house for barbecues.

I'm not saying I don't believe him.

Yes I was invited to his house and yes for example I was responsible for getting him to sign at Celebration Europe. And yes we are still good friends.

So what is your point? I am telling you what he and I discussed and my relationship with him is irrelevant to the discussion.

So don't be smart about it.

voice in the crowd · **Posted:** Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:48 pm

CSMacLaren wrote:

voice in the crowd wrote:

No disrespect to the work done by JRX on the TM but the tusks were broken off on the TM and new ends sculpted so to say you are comparing ANH 1976 to ESB 1979 is not true you are compaing to a rebuilt section circa 2007.

Again absolutely no disrespect to JRX's fine work but the tusks ends are not an original piece.

I have read similar sentiments in a previous thread in which the VP was made "more accurate" than the TM because of the tusk issue. I believe the belief is based on a misconception that the entirety of the tusk ends were broken off. If that were true, then there is no way to properly re-establish the tubes from a restoration standpoint.

If only a portion of the ends were broken off, there is still enough of the surrounding material to properly substantiate and reasonably integrously re-establish the cross sectional shape, thickness, etc. to rebuild the missing portion.

If you take a small bite out of the tip of a hot dog, it's reasonable to think that you can figure out the missing shape.

But while I'm on the subject (not that you touched on it, voice) I have pointed out earlier that some of this "The TM is not accurate because of the restored tusks" arguement is, I feel, purported in order to devalue the TM and to put the VP at the same level, where the experts have pretty much established the VP is ROTJ and not ESB. The VP not only lacks a lot of the surface detail of the TM, let's not forget that the TM is with a dome and the VP is without.

I understand that some feel the VP is more integrous as a whole, and I wholeheartedly agree. From that vantage, I am intrigued by the VP. However, the TM is more a snapshot of the condition of the screen used helmet in its Tantive IV state, and because it's not just a mask but a mask plus a dome, that gives me a truer whole picture of the ANH Vader than the VP.

Still, there is something remarkable about the VP that has me very fascinated. Despite it being slightly cleaner, what appeals to me is the VP's facets, lines and shapes. And perhaps the old photos of the TM (with its surface details) were too distracting. The elegance of the surfaces really do come out in the VP. But the rough war-worn look of the TM is like a historical snapshot -- a moment in the ANH mask's existence that is forever frozen and preserved in the TM.

Hi Mac,

The TM is a fantastic helmet. I don't think the tusk repair was a big deal I was merely pointing out Thomas using two references and labeled them as something they were not as possibly some in the community didn't know that the pieces were sculpted by JRX. I have photos of the TM before repair and know the repair work was minimal and the job done by JRX was superb not a big deal at all.

I am really not one for saying one helmet is 'better' than another to be honest I like to take each helmet for its own merits. I don't think at any point in the thread I have actually voiced an opinion on the VP compared to any other helmet. I have only ever said it is a great helmet from a great source.

I would never say the VP is better than the TM or vice versa it is not my way of thinking.

I will say however the VP is not ROTJ and only one expert Thomas has stated this and you clearly believe him. I should hopefully disprove this soon enough with solid facts and evidence.

The VP has a dome just it has not been copied and only a handful of poor pics exist I myself do not have one but I am also trying through friends to see if it can be made available.

I think the ROTJ theory is incorrect but as I have said I am sincerely working on something that will show something new about the VP and the TM and their relationship to each other. I am not stating anything more than that just I have some new info that will be very intersting to the community as a whole.

As I said - I will possibly get the chance to add some great new stuff about the VP, TM etc soon but I am currently just getting some stuff confirmed at the moment with some friends I am talking to.

Please be patient on waiting for this information as it is as frustrating for me not to show it or discuss it as it is for people waiting to see it. I am currently not showing pics (I have) or discussing stories of lineage until everything is confirmed 100%.

I am also honouring a persons wishes on the subject of sharing at this point in time. The person is in no way not willing to share with the community just some things have to be put in place before we can progress. There are just a lot of variables in the equation just now and I want everything tied up before.

Sorry if this just sounds too vague but things will become very clear and interesting - I just don't know when I am afraid.

So basically believe the VP is ROTJ if you want but you might have to change your way of thinking

I will however say if what I have to finalise and show doesn't add up in the end I will change my way of thinking

Cheers Chris.

Too Much Garlic · **Posted:** Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:50 pm

We all have our differing opinions, but let's try not to turn this into a fist fight... we've all seen how well they turn out.

It IS like pulling teeth, as we all feel passionately about what we believe is right. But believing is not the same as knowing... and knowing requires fact, not theories. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence...

Keep focused.

AnsonJames · **Joined:** Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:53 am **Posts:** 251

SithLord wrote:

AnsonJames wrote:

Are you Brian Muirs agent now or something?
You spoke to him for a short while a couple of years ago I believe.

You make it sound like he invites you round his house for barbecues.

I'm not saying I don't believe him.

Yes I was invited to his house and yes for example I was responsible for getting him to sign at Celebration Europe. And yes we are still good friends.

So what is your point? I am telling you what he and I discussed and my relationship with him is irrelevant to the discussion.

So don't be smart about it.

I'll be smart about anything I want.
Just for the record I really don't believe a word you say.

Lets get back to the subject of Vader and quit this infantile name dropping business shall we?

voice in the crowd · **Posted:** Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:00 pm

Oh.......

Since I was writing my last post things seem to have broken out into a heated debate.

I am not trying to armchair moderate but I agree with Carsten lets chill out a wee bit and focus as this has been a great thread

We are all here for the same reason to discuss what we feel passionate about but no need to get personal.

Cheers Chris.

SithLord · **Joined:** Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:12 am **Posts:** 3115

Oh ya, I forgot to mention that I was also under the assumption about the VP because of it's ROTJ dome....but I'm happy to know what its mask really came from and will put to task that claim of course just as my own mask is being put to task... :wink:

Maybe my mask is nothing more than a copy of the screen mask which is possible (anything is possible) but I'm still reseaching it and it has a lot of interesting features about it...and whether it played a role in the production or not...I'd like to try and show and I have some indication it might have been used but need more than one line of evidence....

SithLord · **Joined:** Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:12 am **Posts:** 3115

AnsonJames wrote:

I'll be smart about anything I want.
Just for the record I really don't believe a word you say.

Lets get back to the subject of Vader and quit this infantile name dropping business shall we?

Well with all due respect, dropping Brian Muirs name is relevant because he examined my mask and I've indicated here his impression. And you don't believe me. Want to see a photo of him in his kitchen holding my mask?

Believe what you want.....

VP Helmet comparisons

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