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 Post subject: Re: Amy White ESB helmet
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:09 am 
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Thanks for those extra pics Jeff! :wink: I'm hoping the person who procured this for the con will get it again, and we'll certainly try to get better pics of it next time, maybe he could get something else from the White collection, no idea, just wishing...

Even with the thumb print, why are you guys saying the dome is ROTJ? Because of the front slope and thickness?


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 Post subject: Re: Amy White ESB helmet
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:56 am 
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mikkonator wrote:
Thanks for those extra pics Jeff! :wink: I'm hoping the person who procured this for the con will get it again, and we'll certainly try to get better pics of it next time, maybe he could get something else from the White collection, no idea, just wishing...

Even with the thumb print, why are you guys saying the dome is ROTJ? Because of the front slope and thickness?


What thumb print? There isn't one. The dome is mounted higher and the tusks are pointed. The dome strip is to soft compared to what's seen in ESB. All traits of ROTJ


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 Post subject: Re: Amy White ESB helmet
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:04 am 
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illbethere1 wrote:
Quite frankly after a second look, I believe thats the best genuine real deal ROTJ helmet I ever seen. Both pieces are exquisitely true to onscreen especially the dome


darthjones wrote:
Honestly it looks at a glance like the "No, I am your father" helmet. And it looks clean enough to me to be a hero helmet having seen a couple in person - I'm talking about the paint, finish, etc.Thoughts on the "father" helmet? Look at neck, widows peak, etc.


Sorry, It is definitely not an ROTJ. It is definitely an ESB. If you really look at that center strip on the dome, it isn't truly the shape of the ROTJ center strip. There is definitely a dimple there. And it is painted
like an ESB. But it is not the '..father..' helmet either.

Compare it to an actual ROTJ. This is the facemask from the gantry scene where Luke surrenders.

ImageImage


Now, with a little magic, we lower the dome and voilà, instant ESB.


Image

Gee, kinda looks like the helmet below, it's even got the right tusks. But it's not this helmet.

Image

There is something that has happened to most of the ESB helmets, whether they were screen used or tour helmets, they have been made to look like ROTJs.

Everybody thinks this helmet below (Magic of the Myth, MOTM) is an ROTJ (hero even)...

Image

But it is not. It is an ESB 'action' helmet. Worn when Dave (or maybe Bob) had to do a lot of walking or needed to see his feet well. Just like the helmet above it is also an action.
These are not heroes. They have recessed thinner chin grills that are easier to see through them the heroes. And sometimes they even have the wrong tusks. Hmmmm. The one above was
used when Dave had to walk through the rebel base ice corridors. It was also used in the scene where Vader says,' bring my shuttle', where he is doing a lot of walking and even walks down steps.

Only turn back the hands of time and it looked a little bit more like this. However, I did this photo restoration a few months back and actually as it turns out the dome does sit a little high on this particular helmet.
This helmet, is the 'no, I am your father'. Take a look at the picture on the right, then check out the pictures below. Note how the black paint follows up at an angle on the side of the nose, instead of changing direction as it does on the other helmets. In the book, the making of ESB. There is a picture of Vader, looking upward when he is on the plarform. You can see that the helmet has a recessed grille.

ImageImage


ImageImage

But all this aside,

This helmet really looks cool. It is painted really well, and clearly appears to be older, despite its near immaculate condition.

However, the molded detail on this helmet is not good enough to be even an action helmet, much less a hero. It's got some serious problems.
Problems you will not find in any ESB screen cap. Or ROTJ for that matter.

Why does it have intentional damage? Somebody sat and hit this helmet again and again down the top of the nose. And when they got to the front of it,
they then started chopping around the edge of the nose at equally spaced intervals. This is intentional, not accidental. Not regular wear and tear. Real deal
helmets, were working helmets and are therefore were usually somewhat beat up. But the type of damage they have does not look like what's on this helmet.

As nice as this helmet is, it is a tour helmet at best. Is clearly meant to be an ESB, and does look like an action, but if it is, it never got used as I can't screen
match it to any shot.


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 Post subject: Re: Amy White ESB helmet
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:32 am 
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I wish I had your enthusiasm posting pics and diagrams D O but I'm just too f#%k&G LAZY :lol and tired .....

There just happens to be a light source thats reflecting on that very spot where you think is the ESB thumb print is. Even with the light source giving it that illusion, it doesn't even remotely resemble an ESB print even with the thick paint on. An alternative verification would be the bottom edge of the peak where ESB has a downward rounded end whereas ROTJ has a distinct upward or inward rounded lip edge. And lastly, The ridges on both sides of the middle strip go all the way down to the front end peak almost evenly and does not taper as would a ESB.

Besides the technical aspects of the peak, vaders right flange or skirt from ESB to ROTJ imo was sanded slightly different or had a bad pull due to that hump from ESB disappearing to a more straight flange in ROTJ.


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 Post subject: Re: Amy White ESB helmet
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:11 pm 
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D.O. Idk what you are looking at. There is no thumb print. That is light reflecting. Look at the sides of the strip, they are rounded and angled. They are sharper on the ESB. And see how much space is shown between the brow and dome? That's a ROTJ trait. For the tusks, they have the wider head and I can tell by light reflection they are pointed.

All I see is ROTJ.


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 Post subject: Re: Amy White ESB helmet
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:08 pm 
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Location: Northern California
vader45 wrote:
D.O. Idk what you are looking at. There is no thumb print. That is light reflecting. Look at the sides of the strip, they are rounded and angled. They are sharper on the ESB. And see how much space is shown between the brow and dome? That's a ROTJ trait. For
the tusks, they have the wider head and I can tell by light reflection they are pointed.

All I see is ROTJ.



illbethere1 wrote:
I wish I had your enthusiasm posting pics and diagrams D O but I'm just too f#%k&G LAZY :lol and tired .....

There just happens to be a light source thats reflecting on that very spot where you think is the ESB thumb print is. Even with the light source giving it that illusion, it doesn't even remotely resemble an ESB print even with the thick paint on. An alternative verification would be the bottom edge of the peak where ESB has a downward rounded end whereas ROTJ has a distinct upward or inward rounded lip edge. And lastly, The ridges on both sides of the middle strip go all the way down to the front end peak almost evenly and does not taper as would a ESB.

Besides the technical aspects of the peak, vaders right flange or skirt from ESB to ROTJ imo was sanded slightly different or had a bad pull due to that hump from ESB disappearing to a more straight flange in ROTJ.




I love how everybody has a different name for everything, we should all get together in a thread and come up with a consensus on what stuff is called.

By thumbprint, I assume you're talking about the little dip in the center strip. First, for there to be a reflection, there has to be something to reflect off of. There is a light reflection in that spot from two different camera angles, which
means there is something physically there for the light to reflect off of. This also eliminates a reflection off the glass. On a true ROTJ, there is nothing there to reflect.



ImageImageImage


I think everybody looks at a new helmet and sees a slightly raised dome and a rounded center strip and says ooh, that's an ROTJ!
And that's exactly what Lucasfilm wanted you to do.

But when you really compare this helmet to an actual ROTJ, it isn't even close.

ImageImage


Besides that, the fact is that all the ROTJ helmets are accounted for except one. And it doesn't look anything like this helmet. It has much sharper detail and has a much thicker bridge between the tusks,
a much larger chin grille that is nearly flush with the surface and cheek faces the flow uninterrupted onto the sides of the nose. And the eyes are tinted gold as most ROTJ's are.

Image



illbethere1 wrote:
I wish I had your enthusiasm posting pics and diagrams D O but I'm just too f#%k&G LAZY :lol and tired .....

Besides the technical aspects of the peak, vaders right flange or skirt from ESB to ROTJ imo was sanded slightly different or had a bad pull due to that hump from ESB disappearing to a more straight flange in ROTJ.


You must be tired, because for the life of me, I cannot figure out what you Are talking about in this sentence. :conf
Sorry.

Like I said, it would be nice if we all got together on terms or what we call stuff. I could see you struggling, trying to come up with names for things that have no names.


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 Post subject: Re: Amy White ESB helmet
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:56 pm 
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Id post a close up pic of the ESB middle thumbprint via my TM to compare at the same angle but Id be in violation of agreement....

I give up, I tried ....... :thumbsup


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 Post subject: Re: Amy White ESB helmet
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:47 pm 
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I still don't see the thumb print! And light can reflect there with out it! It a glossy finish and will reflect bat any point on the helmet. So does my ROTJ Ugly .


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 Post subject: Re: Amy White ESB helmet
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:02 pm 
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Everything about that dome is RotJ. I'm not seeing anything ESB about it.

Also, I have heard that grills are sometimes replaced when the original rusts or gets damaged, so you can't always assume it's the original grill on the helmet now. Tusk tips and tusks are also sometimes a thing that has been repaired/replaced. Many original helmets have those broken and many do not even repair them, because for the most part, repairs can devalue the piece if not done by a professional who makes sure no authentic details and identifying markers are altered or removed.


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 Post subject: Re: Amy White ESB helmet
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:45 am 
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No Humor Man wrote:
Everything about that dome is RotJ. I'm not seeing anything ESB about it.

Also, I have heard that grills are sometimes replaced when the original rusts or gets damaged, so you can't always assume it's the original grill on the helmet now. Tusk tips and tusks are also sometimes a thing that has been repaired/replaced. Many original helmets have those broken and many do not even repair them, because for the most part, repairs can devalue the piece if not done by a professional who makes sure no authentic details and identifying markers are altered or removed.


I agree that the dome tends to look more like an ROTJ then an ESB, but those details could've been changed. And IMO it looks more like it's somewhere in between. But to me
the biggest factor is that the facemask itself looks completely ESB. There's nothing ROTJ about it at all.


Image

Image


I don't believe that the tusks were changed to be ROTJ. In fact the tusks that are on it were actually seen on certain 'on set' ESB helmets and are not consistent with actual ROTJ tusks.
I know the next thought that most people have is, that they are tour helmet tusks. But they don't quite match the tour tusks either.


Image

As far as repairing tusks, LFL goes to no real lengths to repair the tusks. There is certainly nothing about these repairs that would add value or maintain value. And while
I agree with what you said about repairs and devaluing items, I think that would only be true here if LFL had planned to sell these helmets all along as collectible items. I really
don't think that's the case, since the lucrative Hollywood prop collecting is a more recent phenomenon, within the last 10 years or so. And since the A W helmet doesn't have
broken tubes and missing tusks, I would say that's probably not an aspect.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Amy White ESB helmet
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:43 pm 
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I was talking about the helmets in private collection. Also, we know too little about the history of this particular helmet and what happened to it before, during and after going to Amy White to make many conclusions on it. And ESB tusks are fairly different than RotJ tusks, even though they may look similar in pictures.

And what do you mean that all helmets are accounted for? Do you mean presently or as seen in the movie?


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 Post subject: Re: Amy White ESB helmet
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:25 pm 
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No Humor Man wrote:
I was talking about the helmets in private collection. Also, we know too little about the history of this particular helmet and what happened to it before, during and after going to Amy White to make many conclusions on it. And ESB tusks are fairly different than RotJ tusks, even though they may look similar in pictures.

And what do you mean that all helmets are accounted for? Do you mean presently or as seen in the movie?


I mean that it's easy to identify the helmets in Return of the Jedi and that all those helmets are still in the hands of LFL, except for one helmet, that I identified as No.4, which I do not know the whereabouts of. It's probably still in the hands of LFL but they never display it, regardless of that, it doesn't look anything like this particular helmet.

As far as the ESB and ROTJ tusks go, I don't think they look similar in any pictures.. But I think there's a lot of people who look at those wide tipped tusks and just say oh, ROTJ. And my point was that those tips were actually used on the ESB helmets, but only the action helmets, not the heroes.


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 Post subject: Re: Amy White ESB helmet
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:52 pm 
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Very interesting, thanks for posting the pics, I do like the look of this


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 Post subject: Re: Amy White ESB helmet
PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:59 pm 
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Darth Obsession's idea that it might be a ROTJ tour helmet is interesting. Years back, Don Bies surfaced to address the helmets and armor on a table, with LFL employees in the far back, and one posing with a cigarette while wearing a dome (Don said that was him!). The spread of masks show both the cylindrical mount and the stepped mount. The community had previously believed that cylindrical mount to be specific to screen-used ROTJ (they look very similar to the cylindrical mounts on the Don Post Deluxe which is ROTJ and not ESB as it was originally marketed), but Don said he was responsible for creating tour suits and used the cylindrical mounts for them, but that the screen-used ROTJ used stepped mounts.

It would be fascinating to see any photos of the faceplate of the Amy White helmet without the dome. Do any such photos exist?


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 Post subject: Re: Amy White ESB helmet
PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:08 pm 
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Happy New Year to everyone! :cheers


Last edited by jedijeffrey on Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:41 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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