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 Post subject: Re: Science now against rules on RPF
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:18 pm 
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Defstartrooper wrote:
If i came here saying i was thrown out of a supermarket because i informed a staff member that there were products still on the shelves which had gone past their expiration date you wouldn't blink an eye.

No, I would ask you in all seriousness why in the heck you'd want to go back to that store again.

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 Post subject: Re: Science now against rules on RPF
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:30 pm 
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No Humor Man wrote:
Defstartrooper wrote:
If i came here saying i was thrown out of a supermarket because i informed a staff member that there were products still on the shelves which had gone past their expiration date you wouldn't blink an eye.

No, I would ask you in all seriousness why in the heck you'd want to go back to that store again.


And my reply would be to get food, i don't see why i should be inconvenienced into going elsewhere to get my food because a staff member acts inappropriately.
I've done nothing wrong so why should i leave ?
I wouldn't want the expired stuff but that doesn't mean everything in the supermarket is bad.

I go to the rpf to socialize with decent people, to learn various creative methods, to research items etc etc.

I do not go there for the staff or the bigoted people amongst the membership.

I hate racism but unfortunately racism exists worldwide what am i to do leave the planet and never visit again ?
No i don't do that i chose to make my opinion on it known and associate with decent people not racists.

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Last edited by Defstartrooper on Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Science now against rules on RPF
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:38 pm 
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The staff IS the RPF, whether you like it or not. It's their playground. If you don't like their rules or non-rules or whatever... you should just adapt and overcome if you want to stay posting over there... and stop bitching over here when you feel they've wronged you. You make the choice to play in their sandbox, then suffer the consequences.

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 Post subject: Re: Science now against rules on RPF
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:41 pm 
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No Humor Man wrote:
The staff IS the RPF, whether you like it or not. It's their playground. If you don't like their rules or non-rules or whatever... you should just adapt and overcome if you want to stay posting over there... and stop bitching over here when you feel they've wronged you. You make the choice to play in their sandbox, then suffer the consequences.

I thought the "can you speak freely" thread over there cemented that point pretty conclusively.

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 Post subject: Re: Science now against rules on RPF
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:12 pm 
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No Humor Man wrote:
The staff IS the RPF, whether you like it or not. It's their playground. If you don't like their rules or non-rules or whatever... you should just adapt and overcome if you want to stay posting over there... and stop bitching over here when you feel they've wronged you. You make the choice to play in their sandbox, then suffer the consequences.


Well i happen to think the membership is the RPF they provide all the content, they are the people i interact with but lets make the assumption that you are correct and i'm wrong and the staff are the rpf.

Well those staff can only dictate what i do in their playground, by the way ever hear of a benign dictatorship ?
So what i do outside their playground has dick to do with them and if that includes me bitching as you put it that's fantastic, way to go democracy and freedom of speech.

And i do suffer the consequences thank you i've had 5 infractions and a temp ban, i've suffered them all.
That doesn't mean i should suffer in silence when i believe the consequences are unfair.

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 Post subject: Re: Science now against rules on RPF
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:31 am 
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Defstartrooper wrote:
The post was simply the photo.
The context was it was posted in a thread named photos that inspire you.
Nobody even mentioned the photo in the thread let alone complained about it.

This is absolutely a religious based decision, prior to that photo i posted a picture of Darwin with no objection or warning and that picture wasn't removed, why would i assume i would get a warning for posting an image showing a leading anthropologist with hominid skulls when Darwin's photo is fine ?

This is some creationist person who has got all pissy and the staff rather than having the balls to say hey this isn't the forum for religion we don't punish science because it doesn't suit your faith they cow tow to the religion over the science.

The mod even had the weak ass excuse to say in the infraction PM that i had made my point with the Darwin photo.



But do you actually know that someone was offended by the photo? Someone with a religious intent? I do not know if it would be fair to necessarily assume that. I see no reason to this (that is to say, no logic on the part of the party giving the infraction). And why would a photo of Charles Darwin be offensive to anyone? One could post a photo of Leonardo Da Vinci, Sir Isaac Newton, Steven Hawking, Carl Sagan. Are those all equally offensive? They and the woman whose photo you showed are all persons of letters and for those interested in scientific pursuits, potentially worthy of inspiration. What the mods therefore have done, is personally put down what an individual member is inspired by, by something that inherently has no offense (because it represents the pursuit of truth). This to me is disrespectful to the member who posted something inspirational, and a poor reflection on the integrity of the deciding party. If there was a particular reason why the post was offensive or worthy of an infraction, then the mods should at least provide a legitimate and clear reason, otherwise what is to prevent the member from making a similar mistake again? If there are rules, then they should be made clear in that instance. Otherwise it is simply arbitrary, as this instance seems.

Of course, one could argue about it all day, but in the end it won't help. For a private forum they are perfectly free to make up whatever rules they wish, or modify them for each instance as they please. All one can do is remain clear in one's own mind in regard to what is proper or correct.

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 Post subject: Re: Science now against rules on RPF
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:25 am 
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I can at least confirm one person was offended and that would be the mod who issued the infraction, i have no way of knowing for sure if there were further complaints beyond that.

And i can confirm absolutely the decision was religion based here is the infraction PM and the reason given.

Quote:
You already posted the picture of Darwin, point made... but you just couldn't stop there and felt it necessary to post a picture of "EUGENIE SCOTT / Berkeley scientist leads fight to stop teaching of creationism


This is a big ass assumption again by the mods, because someone has a particular political view they can't be admired ?
At no point did i say i admired Eugenie for her political views and it's ridiculous to correlate that's why i posted her picture given that the original photo i posted was of darwin the two people never even met or lived at the same time and Darwin had no political agenda.

I admire Eugenie Scott for her work in the field of physical anthropology of which she is a leading figure.

She's the current executive director of the National Center for Science Education in America.

The University of Missouri honored her as a distinguished alumna.

She was elected to the California Academy of Sciences in 1994.

She served as president of the American Association of Physical Anthropologists from 2000 to 2002.

She was elected as a Fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science in 2002 and was its chair.

In 1999 she was awarded the Bruce Alberts Award by the American Society for Cell Biology.

In 2001 she received the Geological Society of America's Public Service Award.

She received the 2002 Public Service Award from the National Science Board for "her promotion of public understanding of the importance of science, the scientific method, and science education and the role of evolution in science education.

In 2002 the American Institute of Biological Sciences awarded her the first Outstanding Service Award.

She received the 2002 Margaret Nicholson Distinguished Service Award from the California Science Teachers Association.

The National Association of Biology Teachers gave her honorary membership in 2005.

In 2006 she was awarded the Anthropology in the Media Award by the American Anthropological Association for "the successful communication of anthropology to the general public through the media.

In 2007 She and Kenneth R. Miller were jointly awarded the Outstanding Educator’s Award by the Exploratorium Museum.

She has been awarded honorary degrees by McGill University, Ohio State University, Mount Holyoke College, University of Wisconsin, Rutgers University, University of New Mexico,.

In 2009, she became the first-ever recipient of the Stephen Jay Gould Prize from the Society for the Study of Evolution.

She was awarded the Public Welfare Medal from the National Academy of Sciences in 2010.

And all these academic achievements and contributions of which the above are only a portion are to overlooked and she can't be admired because the woman says she doesn't want creationism taught in science classes.
Something by the way i made no mention of or promoted i simply posted a photo of her with a series of skulls.

If i had posted a photo of her underneath some political banner or something fair point but i thought it would be pretty obvious it's her scientific achievements in her field i was referring to not political views given the fact i chose a photo of her with the skulls and not some political rally.

And it's a ridiculous argument anyway to say the photo is offensive because of her political views, everyone in the world has a political view about everything and someone will always have an opposing view and therefore be possibly offended so by the logic used here by the mod and owner any photo of anyone can be defined as baiting or trolling.

Shit half the photo's in the thread were of veterans of the war in Iraq, what's that if not political ?

Another was the famous photo of the protester standing in front of the tanks in Tiananmen square in China, can't get more political than a political protest, i'm willing to bet none of those received infractions.

I can understand why they have the no political/religious content rule but it's a rule that doesn't work, there's no logic to how it's applied it's completely arbitrary, there was no debate or discourse created from the photo i posted so where's the big issue that demands an instant infraction point and removal of the picture.

If any political or religious content warrants this action why was it not applied to the examples i gave above ?

Either these people are incapable of applying a little common sense or they are using the rule to suppress anything that goes against their personal views or they have an axe to grind with the person posting, there is no other explanation.

If i simply wanted to post a picture of political figures i admire i can think of many.

Rosa Parks for here role in ending segregation in the US.
Emmeline Pankhurst for her role in winning the right for women to vote in the UK.
A whole plethora of individuals and organizations that led to the ending of apartheid in South Africa.

I didn't do this because my agenda was not a political or religious one, my agenda was to show my admiration for the advancement of science.

The mods chose to act upon one small facet of Eugenie's life and dismiss everything else.

I wonder if someone posts a photo of Apollo II launching they would just cast aside all the achievements and contributions made by thousands of people without which there would be no apollo program simply because the Chief designer of the Saturn V Werner Von Braun was a card carrying Nazi ?
Or that Arthur Louis Hugo Rudolph who also played a vital role in being in charge of management of the Saturn V project was also a card carrying Nazi and one wanted for war crimes committed at peenemunde and the underground Kohnstein mountain factory?
Under his direct command and request 7.5 million forced laborers were bought in to boost production of V2 rockets, tens of thousands of these workers died under his command because of poor conditions.

Disgusting thoughts to be sure but does this diminish the achievements of everyone who worked on the Apollo missions and made them by and large a success ?

Would the staff ignore all that great stuff and single out these two men for their political views and ban all mention of the program ever on the forum ?
Any sensible person would say that would be a ridiculous thing to do so why do it in Eugenies case ?

Where's the justification ?

I happen to know that at least one member of the presenting team on the show Mythbusters is an atheist and thinks that creationism is humbug and has no place in science, i sure as shit hope nobody on the rpf likes the show Mythbusters, because that's the main focus of the show right everyone knows it for it's anti religious stance not it's entertaining scientific experiments.

I wonder just how many ways there are to demonstrate the stupidity and kneejerk reactionary heavy handed zero common sense approach of the mod who issued this infraction and the owner who endorsed it ?

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 Post subject: Re: Science now against rules on RPF
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:05 pm 
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As HAL9000 would say "take a stress pill" :wink:

Just kidding, you have a point certainly but in this case there just isn't going to be any point to arguing why it is valid, even though you could bring up so many valid examples. Best to leave it be. It is too bad that there is such selective moderation, but all one can do is work within their guidelines. You seem to know specifically why the infraction was given so it could simply be a matter of not pushing the anti-creationist point of view (or pro-evolutionist), especially if you know it might offend. Sure, you should be able to post those photos and speak your mind, but apparently not on that forum. We could always start an evolution appreciation forum. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Science now against rules on RPF
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:37 pm 
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Defstartrooper wrote:
That doesn't mean i should suffer in silence when i believe the consequences are unfair.

But you do. I don't see you speak your mind over at the place where this actually took place. And you seem to forget their rule that reaches beyond their own forum, regarding the conduct of members off-board having an effect on how the member is viewed on-board by the staff. So speaking your mind here about that place, their staff and how they treated you... will land you in more of what you may consider unjust rulings. Did you even consider that they felt extra offended because it was YOU posting the picture, precisely due to past actions off-board commenting on issues between you and the staff there. How in the heck do you expect them NOT to be overly sensitive about you, when this is how you react when you feel you've been wronged. You don't do the reaction there, but they certainly WILL react towards you as if you did and if you were of the notion they would ban you if you posted it there, how in the world do you even begin to consider that you'll be safe from their ban-hammer when commenting here?

Makes very little sense to me... especially when you already feel wronged, to then start a thread here. Just feels to me like you are deliberately begging for the ban over there as that will further justify how unjustly you feel you were treated.

It all feels rather hypocritical to bring the fight here, when it started over there, because you feel you shouldn't suffer in silence. If you truly didn't do this out of spite to take a stab at them from a point of "relative" safety, then you should have kept the fight over there and suffered whatever consequence that would bring. Or just figured out whether you wanted that fight to continue and risk losing your membership or whether you wanted to be part of that forum for what you feel the forum is: the people and the projects and everything there that you enjoy. Right now you are just rather pissing on all that just to mouth off. So what is it... stay on the RPF for what you like, or argue what you feel is an injustice and lose your membership on the RPF and the things you like there? It really seems that's the two choices you have. Live with the bad for all the good you get out of being there... or... screw the good to take on the bad you feel is there.

I had a lot of fight in me regarding things I felt was bad with many things... but then I began thinking about the things I liked and wanted to keep going instead... when feeling that what was good was worth more than the bad, making the bad seem less worth wasting time on, as it added nothing good to my life or my enjoyment of things in the hobby - it only soured things. And it made me sour things for others.

I really don't see why it is worth making this into such a big deal, when you KNOW how things are. Being rebellious against it won't amount to a thing other than a very predictable outcome... so take from this what you want. You now know that YOU posting things may get a more severe reaction than others posting the same thing... likely because of threads like these on other forums, because that's the way the RPF staff have decided to run things. Adapt and overcome, live and learn, take the good over the bad, enjoy your time and let go of some battles that are simply just not worth fighting. Or... keep going with what you are doing and likely get banned on the RPF - which I would honestly and seriously consider an enormous loss.

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 Post subject: Re: Science now against rules on RPF
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:04 pm 
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SithLord wrote:
As HAL9000 would say "take a stress pill" :wink:

Just kidding, you have a point certainly but in this case there just isn't going to be any point to arguing why it is valid, even though you could bring up so many valid examples. Best to leave it be. It is too bad that there is such selective moderation, but all one can do is work within their guidelines. You seem to know specifically why the infraction was given so it could simply be a matter of not pushing the anti-creationist point of view (or pro-evolutionist), especially if you know it might offend. Sure, you should be able to post those photos and speak your mind, but apparently not on that forum. We could always start an evolution appreciation forum. :wink:


Yes but i only know why the infraction was given after the fact, and given that i received no warnings or messages regarding the Darwin photo i had no reason to assume the second photo would be a tipping point.

I didn't get a message saying hey look you posted a Darwin photo leave it there Gary so as to not cause anyone offense, so why would i assume there was an issue posting the second photo relating to the same subject.

It didn't even cross my mind anyone on the forum would take offense to a scientific subject.

So working within the guidelines is pretty damned difficult if not impossible if the rules are imposed in such an arbitrary sense.

If the Darwin photo by itself was an issue but one they would let go why would they not warn me politely in a PM about it rather than saying nothing and letting me assume the subject was fine ?

It's almost like they want people to commit infractions.

And hey i'm always up for a scientific theory bit of banter an Evolution forum sounds great.

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 Post subject: Re: Science now against rules on RPF
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:44 pm 
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No Humor Man wrote:
Defstartrooper wrote:
That doesn't mean i should suffer in silence when i believe the consequences are unfair.

But you do. I don't see you speak your mind over at the place where this actually took place. And you seem to forget their rule that reaches beyond their own forum, regarding the conduct of members off-board having an effect on how the member is viewed on-board by the staff. So speaking your mind here about that place, their staff and how they treated you... will land you in more of what you may consider unjust rulings. Did you even consider that they felt extra offended because it was YOU posting the picture, precisely due to past actions off-board commenting on issues between you and the staff there. How in the heck do you expect them NOT to be overly sensitive about you, when this is how you react when you feel you've been wronged. You don't do the reaction there, but they certainly WILL react towards you as if you did and if you were of the notion they would ban you if you posted it there, how in the world do you even begin to consider that you'll be safe from their ban-hammer when commenting here?

Makes very little sense to me... especially when you already feel wronged, to then start a thread here. Just feels to me like you are deliberately begging for the ban over there as that will further justify how unjustly you feel you were treated.

It all feels rather hypocritical to bring the fight here, when it started over there, because you feel you shouldn't suffer in silence. If you truly didn't do this out of spite to take a stab at them from a point of "relative" safety, then you should have kept the fight over there and suffered whatever consequence that would bring. Or just figured out whether you wanted that fight to continue and risk losing your membership or whether you wanted to be part of that forum for what you feel the forum is: the people and the projects and everything there that you enjoy. Right now you are just rather pissing on all that just to mouth off. So what is it... stay on the RPF for what you like, or argue what you feel is an injustice and lose your membership on the RPF and the things you like there? It really seems that's the two choices you have. Live with the bad for all the good you get out of being there... or... screw the good to take on the bad you feel is there.

I had a lot of fight in me regarding things I felt was bad with many things... but then I began thinking about the things I liked and wanted to keep going instead... when feeling that what was good was worth more than the bad, making the bad seem less worth wasting time on, as it added nothing good to my life or my enjoyment of things in the hobby - it only soured things. And it made me sour things for others.

I really don't see why it is worth making this into such a big deal, when you KNOW how things are. Being rebellious against it won't amount to a thing other than a very predictable outcome... so take from this what you want. You now know that YOU posting things may get a more severe reaction than others posting the same thing... likely because of threads like these on other forums, because that's the way the RPF staff have decided to run things. Adapt and overcome, live and learn, take the good over the bad, enjoy your time and let go of some battles that are simply just not worth fighting. Or... keep going with what you are doing and likely get banned on the RPF - which I would honestly and seriously consider an enormous loss.


Carsten i like you but you're coming across as pissy and scared of the big bad rpf.
Like i said i'f had made a complaint about unfair treatment anywhere you wouldn't have this issue, i've already made it clear my statements are my own and are not endorsed by anyone else so relax ok.

And believe me i have spoke my mind over there many times in the past and any complaint whatsoever is simply met with another infraction or a threat from the staff.

I've also made it clear i stand by my convictions regardless of threats, i've never accepted bullying in my life i'm not going to accept now when i'm pushing 40.
There's absolutely zero chance my message would be seen on the rpf they would make it vanish faster than a fat man with cheeseburger.

That is why i'm posting here because it will be seen.
The fact they have this rule in their guidelines that they can ban members for anything they do or say off site just goes further to demonstrate the totalitarian dictatorial nature of the staff there.
But ultimately they still only have control over their playground.

And my convictions are a big deal, there's nothing in the world more admirable than the progress of education, my personal integrity is worth far more to me than an internet forum membership.

And the staff there certainly shouldn't be making decisions on warnings and infractions based upon who posted it, it should be on the content alone.

The only sour thing about the rpf is the way the staff run it.

Was i the only one to notice that the first action Art took when he purchased the forum was to remove all but two staff members ?
prior to this all the staff members and there was what around 7 of them ? would have discussions on whether conduct warranted an infraction or not, i never received a single one under this system.

The moment things changed with the staff situation 3 inside 3 months and not for anything specific it's always under the heading trolling or baiting, because you can basically make anything fall under that heading even posting a photo of a world renowned and respected scientist oh and the one before that was for posting a picture of a Vader Mouth grill, previous to that was for asking why so many threads got locked, another was saying that GINO shouldn't make factual statements when it's impossible for him or anyone to know the true fact and he can only make a best guess, another was saying i actually like Mike Verta.

Apparently it was wrong of me to mention a banned member in a thread titled discussion on banned members which i didn't start and several other people had already mentioned banned members, even two staff members had taken part in the discussion after my one single post in the thread.

the third stooge decided to come along a month later and give me an infraction, neither of the other two staff members at the time mentioned anything about it when i posted it, but suddenly a month later it was a big enough deal to issue infractions.

And you can't appeal any of these things, once they given they're given.

What was even more insulting is some time later Art posting in a thread that the staff don't mind people discussing staff actions and nobody has ever gotten warned for it.

I of course posted a screenshot of the infractions area on my profile where it clearly said infraction given for discussing staff actions.

Was it removed ? not a chance he still denied these things happened and i was some kind of special case.
Special indeed because i didn't even discuss the staffs actions i just said i liked Mike.

See these are all petty non events nobody takes any notice of apart from the staff, it's been nothing but personal all the way from the start so if i'm going to be punished because of personal reasons i'm obviously going to take it personally.

And if you think i'm alone go check out their own banned members list, see how many people have been banned since Art has been in charge compared to before, has there been a sudden spate of unruly and bad behavior ?
By the way you should probably at least double the number under Arts reign, half of them don't even get added to the list.

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 Post subject: Re: Science now against rules on RPF
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:39 pm 
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If you think that's why I've commented like I have in this thread, then that's your prerogative.

I would have said the same if it was regarding other forums as well. It's always tiresome when shit happening elsewhere gets pulled over here. I guess they may feel similar when shit from here gets pulled over to their forum.

Staff actions on another forum is absolutely nothing that we can do anything about and nothing is really accomplished by ranting and raving about it here. Learn the rules, written as well as unwritten and learn to maneuver the place you want to hang out. Making posts about staff action happening on one forum, on another forum is not "learning to maneuver the place you wanna hang out". It's a general notion... and it can be legitimately seen as stirring a fight against said other forum. I just can't see anything positive coming from such posts. Other forums has their way of doing things, The Prop Den has a different way of doing things - we are about open debate and trying to talk about things, where others are more restrictive. That's their way, and if you want to play in their playground... then making posts on other forums about staff rulings is probably not the best approach to be able to stay playing in their playground, if they are as selective and unpredictable and as restrictive as you say. I'm sorry, but if that's how you view them... then the outcome will be very predictable... and if that happens, will we then get a ban rant here too?

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 Post subject: Re: Science now against rules on RPF
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:37 pm 
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Carsten i appreciate what you're saying but i'm not asserting that staff actions on the rpf or anywhere else are of any business of the propden, neither did i create this thread in any expectation anyone here can or will do anything.

I understand that you might personally find it tiresome but without wishing to be rude why should that be of concern to me any more than my feelings of the way the rpf staff act are to you ?

I try to stay within the rules but they make it impossible i've been a member there for 5 years i'm pretty familiar with the rules and i somehow managed to go infraction free for 3 of those years.
It's only since the forum was sold i've had any warnings, i don't think my behavior has suddenly gone downhill over the last two years, if anything i've attempted to show greater restraint because i'm aware of just how petty, personal, and trigger happy the current staff are.

Heck i've even got to the point of not posting anything at all at times, how sad is that ?

There is absolutely no way you can stay within the guidelines in the manner they apply them, if they want to give you an infraction they can and will and they'll just label it baiting/trolling/respect.

Just impossible.

So while i appreciate you're frustrated by this thread i hope you appreciate it's simply me venting my own frustration too.
It's an off topic area everything in it is pretty pointless i don't understand why my thread should require any specific point to you or the propden for it to be valid of posting it here.

And i'm long past expecting my treatment on the rpf by the staff to ever improve, i've tried many times both publicly and privately to sort it out it's just not going to happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Science now against rules on RPF
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:27 am 
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What's interesting is that Art and I get along just great. My ban is permanent, but I wouldn't go back if I could. I stand behind every post I've ever made, am willing to pay the consequences, and don't believe for a second there would be any way of avoiding another ban, as the enforcement of policy is selective, random, and inconsistent. Wasn't always so. But then again, the only constant is change.

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 Post subject: Re: Science now against rules on RPF
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:44 am 
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mverta wrote:
What's interesting is that Art and I get along just great. My ban is permanent, but I wouldn't go back if I could. I stand behind every post I've ever made, am willing to pay the consequences, and don't believe for a second there would be any way of avoiding another ban, as the enforcement of policy is selective, random, and inconsistent. Wasn't always so. But then again, the only constant is change.

_Mike


Hey Mike how you doing ?
I'm glad you and Art get along he's made it perfectly clear to me he has a true dislike for me, at least in PM's he has.

Quite telling though that even someone he gets along with would say it's impossible to avoid a ban with the way policy is enforced.

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